Late-Night Talk: Ersin Hussein, PhD. A PhD Can Change Your Life Without Promising A Job

So Ersin, welcome and thank you so much. And we've tried to schedule a podcast conversation and we've made it and we are here. So welcome. Yes, thank you so much, Louise. I am so grateful for you really accommodating my timetable and, you know, working around what I'm doing at the moment. And I'm really grateful for your sort of understanding on that front and the making the time for me to. I don't know what's going to happen in this conversation really, but I'm just really looking forward to actually sitting down and chatting with you, having a nice chat actually in a way that we probably haven't been able to do so well. Can can I say on the podcast, I was your internal examiner for your PhD thesis? First of all, congratulations because that was such a great Viber to be involved in and I've really enjoyed reading your places that there was so much commonality there in terms of some of the ideas that we explore and think about. And yeah, your Viva Louise. Honestly, it's one of those Vivas that will stay with me because of how professionally you conducted yourself and how prepared you were. And we had such a good chat with Eve and obviously with the chair as well. So yeah, it was just wonderful. So really well done. And I'm hoping in this chat we hear a little bit more about what you're doing next as well. So that would be really cool. Fake yours and for the kind words and yes, it's going backtracking for the for the exam. They we were having the mock fever with Stephen and Nigel and they were saying, are you feeling nervous to see a little bit? But at the same time, I do look forward for this. And because it's going to be a, it's going to be a conversation and say like this, Oh, I know it's going to be an exam and I'm going to try to treat it as a, as a conversation, as if we were at a coffee shop or so also like that. But obviously in a professional atmosphere, of course. But at the same time just thinking, OK, I'm just going to say what I know in my, across my thesis. Obviously it's not going to be that much of a perfect, but whatever I say, I could see as it would be evaluated. It's going to be fantastic. It's going to be, it would be a really professional, casual conversation. So. That's what I. I suppose it's, it's weird for people to say you've got to look forward to it and enjoy it, but you must because, you know, this is an opportunity where people have really, really engaged with your work closely and you're going to have this really in depth discussion. But you're not just discussing the thesis. There's, you know, depending on the Viber and what you are doing the PhD for, there's conversations around what next as well. And it was really good to have that in your Viber. So it was, yeah, I really enjoyed it. How? How was your Viber? Quick, really quick. I mean, my memory of it was, gosh, this was back in September 2014, my Viva. So I remember going up to Warwick University and my mum sort of drove me up. She was like sort of hovering outside the building as I went in. And my mum is just such a wonderful support for me. And I probably will talk a bit about her in this, not trying to be fuzzy and mushy, but feel like in there for me in terms of supporting my, you know, what I'm doing. So that was a really nice moment. And I remember the door opening in my internal examiner sort of smiled and ushered me in. And my external was David Potter. And Professor David Potter, he's at Michigan University. So he was on a big screen as I walked in. So we sort of did it hybrid and it was great. It was, it was all the sort of expected questions, you know, the thesis, the process, bit of a deep dive in the different chapters. And then there was just a really nice relaxed discussion at the end about what to do next and, you know, some advice about publication, that type of thing. And yeah, it, it felt really surreal because it, I didn't feel like it was happening in a weird way because it was so pleasant. They asked me tough questions and they gave me lots of advice. And obviously there were things I had to go off and work on, but minor corrections and it was just great. So yeah, it was a really, really nice day. I can see it's just it was just the traditional questions as as it happened in my fiver as well. And so I wonder which one did you find more challenging when David Professor David Porter asked you a question where you found a bit of hardship to to grasp the to grasp your answer? I think I can't remember the minutia. I always struggle with trying to condense information into a really quick answer. So the summarise your thesis. That type of stuff I always find quite challenging, I'm not going to lie. And even sort of several years down the line in this profession, it's hard for me to be succinct because I want to say everything, yes. And you know, do it in a, you know, joyful way and go into the detail. But that's a skill where you have to pull things back. I remember there being discussions that I know, I know I needed to go off and think about more that concerned what how Cypriots and in the Roman period were articulating their identity and what how that compared with other landscapes in the epigraphic record. Because my thesis looked at local identity formation and responses to imperial rule, predominantly looking obviously at the at the elites because they're the ones that feature prominently on, you know, epigraphic material on inscriptions. And, and yes, so there were questions there about how those trends concerning Cyprus and what they're, what Cypriots are doing outside the island, how that compares with other contexts and other communities. So I remember that being something I had to really go away and think about a little bit more after the Viber and I was, you know, thinking about what to do with things. So yeah, there was things, things like that. So that was your, your whole research project then? Yes, my, my PhD was on Roman Cyprus and a lot of people at the time were like, why, you know, like why, why are you bothering looking at this place? And that's the point, you know, I, I started reading about Roman Cyprus and it was, you know, still hanging on to some sort of ideas and interpretations that were quite impressionistic and quite rooted in ideas of their time that were formed in the mid, you know, the early in the mid 20th century. And it was really clear that what was going on in Roman Cyprus was dynamic, locally driven. But there's the veneer of Roman imperial rule and the responses to that, which I think you have to dig a bit deeper in terms of the evidence and find the nuance in the interpretation. So that's what my thesis was trying to do. It was trying to address some of those very traditional interpretations that presented it as a backwater of the Roman Empire. And yeah, in many ways, yeah. But you know, when you stop looking at the island from the perspective of Roman Italy and actually immerse yourself in the island's culture and identity of the time and look outwards from the island, you get a very different picture of what's going on. Because you're thinking about local connections and you're thinking about regionalism and you're thinking about that sort of connectivity with all the spaces around it. And that includes Italy in terms of that connection. But there are other deep rooted things going on there that the priority needs to be on. So yeah, that's what the thesis was doing. It was shifting the perspective. You know the the case was to we need to shift the perspective. So it was more looking rather at the Cypriot context within the the imperial administration over there and not then trying to approach it by, from what you're saying, approach it by researching the local, the local area, but also the what the other external influences that then was integrated and that shape the identity or just maintaining the identity of of local Cypriots. Was it from around that? Yes, spot on. You get a first, SO. I guess would be something quite quite similar to what I've to also what I did. Exactly, exactly. And all the the post colonial theory that you, you engaged with and you know, such a authority over that spoke to me in terms of, you know, how do we how do we enter the foray? You know, how do we unpack all this, you know, really complex narrative and how do we, you know, build, build a picture where there's more nuance? We're never going to know 100%, but it's about asking interesting questions and keeping the conversation open rather what, what I felt when I was reading about Roman Cyprus before I started my PhD. And this helped me formulate the question or the questions that I wanted to explore. It felt that there, there's been a, there was a wealth of research on the Roman period in the 20th century, but it, it, it kind of closed the conversation. It didn't open it up. And that's no fault of anybody. You know, there's, there was some, there's some fantastic scholars and their legacy is really important when we look at what, how Roman Cyprus was engaged with and investigated. But yeah, it felt, it felt very timely because there's a lot of really exciting work happening on Hellenistic or Ptolemaic Cyprus and Roman Cyprus. And I, I feel really, it feels really good to be part of that conversation. And that conversation is still going on. And I think there's a lot of, a lot of leg, you know, legs in it, if that's the right phrase, you know? So, right. So yeah, there's a lot of exciting stuff. On those it is so fascinating as you touch upon that if being a small, a small geographical Isle island almost close to the coast to the eastern coast of the Mediterranean. It has such a massive history behind it. And when we know there's a lot of pre Roman presence, like you say, the Phoenicians and the the local Cypriots over there at the time and and then Hellenistic Roman post Roman. That's such a fascinating but shifting the focus on the ancient world. We, we, we had a plethora of of cultures there that interacted, exchange even integrated. And there's always this kind of a biased perspective by looking at the sources without, yes, focusing too much on what the actual tangible evidence is out there. Yes, right. Absolutely, Louise. And with Roman Cyprus in particular, you have very few written sources that tell you, you know, they present such a vague and impressionistic picture of the island, and they're written by people who haven't set that They're that type of thing. You know, it's all at arm's length. And the aims of their work is to promote other ideals. And so you have to sort of unpick all of that and pay really close attention to the archaeology and the landscape and the environment as well. So yeah, that was, it was, it was a great project. And I didn't, it's really strange. I didn't expect that I would stay with it after my PhD. And I've got such a naive and daft thing to think because, you know, I've got the very strong connection with the island because it's where my family are from. I grew up in the UK, but I've, you know, always had this very strong pull and, you know, feel with the island. I feel like that's, you know, I feel my, my home is, is several places and Cyprus is a big part of that profile. So, yeah, I don't know why I came out of the PhD thinking that's it, I'm not going to look at Cyprus again. You know, it was so naive of me. And really, yeah, it was, it was, it's, it's, it's, it's become a really important aspect of the work that I'm I'm doing. And it take, it takes me in lots of directions that I didn't necessarily anticipate. And yeah. So I hope we can we can talk about some of that, relate that to sort of PhD, what happens afterwards. Because I, I was really interested in knowing if because you said you, you followed up and your PhD research after passing the vibe, after doing the corrections and after doing the to the vice chancellor during the during the ceremony and, and I. So that's why I wonder what, what did you do during your, your post PhD journey until you got until you got a job offer at Swansea University? Because I was really interested to know. We've we've chatted before, but I'd like to know a bit more how, how you surpassed those, those challenges of trying to look any job, employment, any, any Employment Opportunity until you had this, this opportunity. I think I'm going to have to go back a bit if that's OK. Can I go back to before I did the? No problem, No problem at all because just having a conversation. I think, oh, I'm just trying to think here how to articulate this, because as we all know, doing a PhD is never a guarantee but a job. Yeah. And that's, I'm not saying that to put people off from doing it. It's just realistic. And the years after submitting my PhD, I had a couple of years that felt quite fraught. I think fraught is the word I would use because it was this constant hustle. And academia is a hustle these days. I think it's in terms of you've got to be flexible, you've got to be creative and you've got to work with lots of networks of people. And, you know, you know, I couldn't do what I do without, you know, my friends, whether they're in academia or not, in terms of leaning on them for advice or bouncing ideas off of them. And of course, my family and my, my big support network is, you know, it's my husband and my mum. And in terms of that hustle afterwards, that constantly applying for jobs, I've applied for everything and I felt I felt quite prepared for that because if we go way back, I didn't plan to do a PhD. No. And I didn't expect to get a job in academia afterwards. And my route to doing the PhD was quite it's unique to me. Everybody has a unique story. I actually did my undergrad degree in straight classics. I then had a year out where I worked. I'm not from a family where the inherited vocabulary was around academia. I come from, you know, a family where, you know, my grandparents, they moved to the UK in the 1950s. They did what the majority of good Cypriots do. They like had fish and chip shops. You know, we, everyone in my family are, you know, there's they, they have set up their own businesses and they've worked in like catering or hosting, you know, hospitality, those types of industries or they've worked with, with their hands. And it's, I've just been from a family where it was the, the, the reflex was always this, you've got to work really hard. You've got to fight for your place here. You've got to take every opportunity that you can. And my mum was a single mother. She raised me. It was very challenging at times for us, but the thing that she always instilled in me was your education will give you choices always. That was her thing that she always wanted to instill in me. And again, like many people who find their way into academia, you have the stars align at weird points and you sort of take opportunities when you can. And there are two moments in my, in my education history that really stand out as sort of Willy Wonka golden ticket moment. And I, I, and I know I've gone back quite a bit, but I think it's really important to mention this because this really feeds into a lot of the ethos in terms of some of the things I do and the choices I make now. But it also speaks to some of the challenges of classics as a subject area or a subject group in education today. So when I was about 11 I got a scholarship to go to a very high profile private school in the Uki went to the Cheltenham Ladies College. It was one of those schemes where it was a government assisted bursary, so the my school fees were paid for. So it was one of those types of scholarships and the aim of it was to aid social mobility. So it was there was without that type of lucky break, I would never have got into a school like that and I would never have been introduced to the classics in the ancient world in the way that has sparked the curiosity for me that made me go on to study it at undergraduate level. So from a very early age, I always had this. I've got to kind of. Make good on this because I was given this gift of this opportunity and again, I sort of went through my undergrad degree. I did straight classics, wanted to do an Mai, really liked the look of the MA at Warwick. I looked at that. The course was the visual and material culture of ancient Rome. So it was a very intensive training in material culture studies which set me up for what would then become the PhD. As part of that I did two months at the British School of Rome. And again, you know, lots of nothing was a given. Everything was at to work alongside studying. I took years, you know, a year out in between. I had a gap year. I did a year out after my degree, before the MA. So there was all of this balancing of lots of different streams so that I could maintain my my studies. Then I had the I thought, OK, I've, I've got these skills. I'm going to, I'm going to apply for a PHDI think one of one of my module leaders at Warwick sort of floated the idea to me. So I thought, you know what, I'm going to apply for it. And it was the AHRC block grant scheme. They had one of those opportunities and I didn't get it. I, I had AI had a year where I was just temping and working and sort of, you know, not quite sure what I was going to do. My mum's always said to me as well. So education will give you choices. That's her thing. But she also said to me, you've got to find something that you're passionate about and that you love. Yeah. Not very sound advice when it comes to financial planning and, you know, thinking in that sort of sense. So I don't know, you know, we could all be wishy washy and say these things, but she's right. You know, we spend so much time working. So yeah, find something you're passionate about. And the PhD was that opportunity for me to explore ancient Cyprus in a way that my undergrad didn't enable me to do because of my degree in the MA, there wasn't room for that either. So I didn't get the AHRC block granting. So I was, I was grant, sorry. So I was, I was temping, I was doing the the list office jobs. Imagine I was like processing pensions and, you know, like just not me, you know, And this is no disrespect to anybody who does this, this type of work. I'm not saying, I mean, I'm at all. I'm flipping chicken. Yeah. No, no, trust me, Louise. You know, I have every respect for everybody who, you know, finds their thing and does whatever it is that they're doing. But I just wasn't sure what I was going to do. And then I got an e-mail saying, OK, the person who was offered the the AHRC grant, they've turned it down and probably gone elsewhere type of thing. It's open to you. I was like, yeah, do it, you know. So of course I was going to take that opportunity. So I stayed at Warwick throughout the whole of my undergrad and PhD sort of experience. I wasn't going to look at gift horse in the mouth and you know, like not go for it. Of course I was going to take it. So I think linking this to the what came afterwards, yeah, it was really fraught. I was bouncing between teaching posts, so fixed term teaching posts that really taught me so much. It's very, it can be very sink or swim at times because I was, I was commuting a lot. It was really exhausting. There's like little research time. You go from this moment where you've, you know, been able to really immerse yourself in research. You've produced this really hefty piece of work that's original. It's your own. You've immersed yourself in that whole process. You've, you've trained in lots of different skills. You've done that whilst doing the PhD as well. You've talked about flipping chicken, you know, like many people doing their PhDs. Yeah, I got the block grant, but I was working alongside it as well because I needed to pay rent and, you know, support travel and all other things that I was doing as part of the research project. So when I came to that point where I was working in the fixed term teaching contract, it was very, very challenging. There was a lot of uncertainty. I didn't expect to get an academic job. I thought, I'm going to give it a really good go, I'll do my very best. I applied for everything. I felt prepared for that risk because as I say, I came from a background or I come from a background where I was really used to seeing people doing a lot of behind the scenes extra work as part of building their own businesses. And I always knew that for me to make it, I'd have to really push myself in certain ways. So I, I took a lot of inspiration just from the, the type of behaviours that I saw from my own family and their own background in history. And that was that was, that was something that I do really hold close to my heart because of how they found their, their, their space and their way and their identity living in the UK, whether it's my grandparents or like my aunts and aunts and uncles and of course my mum as well. So yeah, I was, I was really prepared to give it a good go. I, I didn't get a postdoc. I applied for lots of postdocs, didn't, didn't get, didn't get any of those. But I was also applying for permanent jobs as well. And by the time I applied for the job at Swansea and was interviewed, I think I'd had five interviews that particular summer. And then the Swansea interview was October, October 13th. I do remember that I came down to Swansea and it was tipping it down with rain. It was like I remember getting on the train and you know, the steam outside, you know, I do. I do remember it really vividly, but I remember if there was a bit of waiting time until I was told I'd I'd got the job at Swansea and I just remember thinking I can't do this anymore. This is it. You know, if, if Swansea says no, I'm going to turn the skills that I have developed along the way because your PhD is not just about sitting in a room and studying, is it? I'm going to turn those skills to something else. There's something else I can do, whether it's with this passion for ancient history and ancient Cyprus or whether it's for, you know, in another sector entirely that I was, I was open minded in that respect. And when I did get the job offer, it didn't feel real. And I'm still waiting for the university to e-mail me and say it was a mistake. We, we send the wrong e-mail out, you know, you know, the imposter syndrome is real, you know, because I saw who I was up against. You know, it's a small world, you know, you see the same people at job interviews and yeah, someone took it, Someone, the department and the UNI took a chance on me. I did. I do think, I think nowadays we, we just need to obviously the young, younger generations who are coming to university, so they have to get this mindset and they think this is not just secondary school anymore. This is more educational, but more of a working context and doing the, the PhD. I mean, I know it's around 2% across the world. They can go through a PhD and they're doing the PhD. Many of them just they can't grasp the this sort of juggling challenges that comes to to your way. And most of us are not are self funded. Some of them I have funding, but they need to have a what they call now there's a side hustle to to try to juggle everything at the same time. And not many of them not think they aren't capable, but they did just need an extra push from whether their family, their closest friends to you can do this. But you need to have this emotional resilience to conclude both the degree and keep keep the pace and using those skills to the job that you wanted to apply or to establish a business or to doing everything that that you can hope that you can do. And I think many of us, we need to hear that if if you don't have that mindset, then it will be even harder for you to complete a PhD, whether it is 30,000 words on a STEM PhD or on an arts and humanities PhD for 100K words. You just have to have that emotional resilience. It's not this, it's even, it's even go. It goes beyond writing, writing and producing research. Yes. And it's there's so much to say about this. I mean, I mentioned, I talked a bit about my family and my family background and I, how I, how I viewed it was and I still think this now I think I am a business and I am the product, yes. And that has driven how I, I plan, how I present myself, the choices that I make in terms of what I accept and where I draw certain boundaries. And I think that is what prepared me for it's, you know, the, the, the tough decision that if, if this isn't going to work, there's other stuff that I can add my hand to. And to be honest with you, I find it quite, I have so much admiration for the PhD students I see coming through the system. Now, obviously we're talking about the UK system, you know. Yeah, it was, it was a hustle when I was doing the PhD in terms of, you know, we were teaching. I had, you know, there were organising events, being, you know, presenting yourself at different conferences and doing all of these types of things, you know, doing community work or outreach work as well. But today I'm seeing PhD students, you know, like yourselves and your peers, you know, you've, you've come out the other end of it, but all throughout it, you were doing those things and you were publishing, you were organising conferences. I didn't do that until after I finished my PhD. You know, publishing was never a pressure or a thought, you know, and again, you know, you started this, this podcast and this is sort of seeing you throughout your PhD as well. So there's this, this pressure and this, you know, this, it's like this tension that you've got to stand out even more. And I don't think, I just don't think I could have cut it and done that. You know, it was, it felt, it already felt too much when I was doing what I was doing. But it's not doesn't compare to what I see your, you know, your group peers doing. So yeah, it's the PhD is in an incredible thing to do. And never forget somebody once said to me, I couldn't do your job because I, I'd hate to sit in an office all day. And I just thought that's the last thing that I do. I'm speaking to, I, I speak to so many people. I'm out the office, I'm either up and down the corridors or I'm in a lecture room or workshop setting or a seminar, you know, whatever word you want to use for the, for the teaching setting. You know, there's, there's so much more to doing a PhD and, and what comes next. That's, and that's, that's a good point sharing, sharing those sharing those insights outside of the teaching demands. And I even, I even go to when I go to work, I, most of the, most of the, the people who work there at, at Nando's are undergrads and I'm the only PhD over there. So, so they asked me. So you're a doctor. Yes, I am, but not here. But they are, they keep asking me questions, which are, they are curious and they see, they see us. It gives the impression that they see PhDs as the leading example as their role model. And so I do that that personal experience where I every time I get someone, not all of them of course, but I do have a few undergrads in different areas that they ask them how is it like to do? I'm feeding on this, but I'm so unsure about it. Could you just give me some insights? What was your experience like? And I say, well, it's a roller coaster of emotions and and professional hardships that you have to grasp and you need to be prepared yourself. As we were saying previously. I do remember this one when I was having a chat during a peak, a peak, a peak rush hours or sorry, rush hours. And this underground was a psychology is a student in psychology and say, oh, I'm interested about doing this, about doing the PhD, but I'm not so sure. What does it look like? So who else to ask? And then myself. And then what would be you being a PhD student, what would you and ask? What is your ideal image of a PhD candidate? And that student was a bit baffled because didn't have an an expected answer. And so I said, well, it's not to have a precise answer because the PhD goes even beyond of research. You have, you have your personal life, you have family life, you have other struggles such as working at Nando's or anywhere else. You have to do your issues with rent, bills regardless of living in a shared accommodation or not. You have conferences, you have network attending some which you have to put in yourself there. These are mandatory. You have training to do. You have all these things and you need to grasp them at the same at at once while managing the time and leveraging your resources that you have at at your hand, at the palms of your hand. And so these are multiple things that you need to juggle at the same time. So that's, I gave that advice that I gave that insight of the ideal image of a PhD candidate. And so then that's that student. I don't think that student it no longer works there anymore, but said to me, yes, I, I want to take a PhD And I think he's about to process the the application to go through, but I don't know when it's going to when will it start or whether it has been accepted or not. But that I think that there will be, I feel myself some sort of sharing, some sense of pride to share to them. I'm, I'm, I'm a role model to them and I need to give them insights to what they best if they are interested in going through a PhD. But I think you you'll see that generally if they are in, if they have, if they are being honest with themselves. And thank you for sharing that loose because I, no, it really speaks to an important point about preparing yourself with a PhD, if you're, if you're interested. I mean, yes, you know, I'm talking about my experience here, but it was so unique to me. And the world in which I did my university studies is very different to the world in which people are doing it now. And you know, when people say to me, they ask for advice, I can talk to them about certain things, but I just say go and speak to someone who's doing a PhD now. Go and speak to as many people as possible because your insights are very good. Is going to be closer to what they're going to face as opposed to what mine are. Because the world, the landscape has changed. The world has changed. And yeah, so it's, it's really great that, you know, people are talking to you. I love that. And yeah, from different disciplines as well. Good, you know, speak to as many people as possible. And it's important to be part of that network if you can, where you're talking to each other across, you know, studying levels. It's it's, it's really, really good. Yeah, and I think I do believe that they'll eventually will do so, maybe one or two students who I talk with who show genuine interest. And I believe that. I believe they they will go. If they don't want to go, that's their own decision. But at least you have this feeling that, well, I've done my role. Now it will be up to you to have your own thought of how you're going to overcome this this this degree. Yes, I mean, I know Louise, the the next of your podcast and you, you know, you have lots of different guests on here. But the, I guess the one thing I say when, when people want to start having that conversation is on ethical grounds. Like, of course, gladly talk to anybody about doing a PhD and what they want to do, but ethically, I can't present a rosy picture about the job market that comes afterwards, you know? And what, Oh, goodness, I mean, one of the pieces of advice that I kept hearing when I was trying to secure a permanent job made me really sad because people kept saying things like, oh, just hang in there, something will happen. And I just kept thinking, but not everybody can hang in there because people have rent to pay or people have caring responsibilities. You know, hanging in there is for people of a very certain profile, hanging in there isn't for everybody. And that's not a reflection on them. That's a reflection of, you know, economics or their social economic background, that type of thing. So I found that type of advice as well, meaning as it was, it was quite frustrating and I think we all acknowledge. I've sort of mentioned 2 Willy Wonka moment, golden ticket moments that put me on this path. And, you know, in terms of my education, I always have to make a shout out about that because that speaks to accessibility to studying the ancient world. But yeah, there's times when, you know, luck comes into play, you know, or kismet, you know, So for me, for me, it was that someone took a chance on me, you know, someone read, you know, my application letter and yeah, I thought, okay, Cyprus, let's interview this person, you know, so. Yeah, it's a matter of look after all, even with the consistency, but. But honestly, the Swansea, the Swansea job application, it was the last chance saloon I'd, I heard, I'm not going to beat around the Bush here. My mental state was not good at that point. I was like, I just cannot take, you know, doing these endless applications and getting to interview stage and being rejected over and over again. And it was a, it really was a case of if this does not work out, I'm out of here. Yeah. And it worked out. And. It worked out just like insisting upon the the same thing until it works out. So now going now because yeah. How long have you been a lecturer then? Goodness, I'm just trying to think. I'm very tired, Louise. It's that time of year, you know, it's like markings nearly done. I'm just trying to think back. OK, So I started lecturing during my PhD. I think I gave my first lecture in like 2010 or 2011. It would have been 20-11, something like that. Yeah, but I went into a full time lecturing post straight after the PhD at Warwick. So that was in 2015 to 2016. And then I did AI, did a fixed term post at Bristol University and then I came to Swansea. And then so between your first, first lecture ever until now, how, how your teaching experience has changed and if you have it in between your experience, did you, did you took your, your initiative to to do something that made a significant impact across all the depart, all the universities been through or or more specifically in Swansea where there was something that most impactful for the department? And then how did that affected yourself as as a as a lecturer? Yeah, there's oh gosh, there's a few things there. I mean, I remember my first lecture, Louise, I, I'd written out a whole script and I was like, students like reading it. Oh, and someone, someone came up to me afterwards. I don't know who this person was. They must have been a fellow post grad student from another, you know, sitting in and he, he was really blunt. He said to me, good lecture, but you apologise too much. It was really like differential and nervous. And it was like the first time I was sort of teaching. So the thing that's changed obviously is confidence. I mean, I'm assuming you did some lecturing or some teaching or something. Did you do part of that? Is your your PhD studies? Yes, but for for for children. The children Fab and they. Say children, so say secondary school wise key stage 7 and 8 at a PhD level, of course. But I had, if I say teaching teaching, I'd say my first ever teaching was at A, at a Roman archaeological site back in and I was a guide to at the time I was giving tools to primary school students, which they, they were amazing. And they were like mostly attentive to guess the how the Roman villa was made in there, in there in Portugal, because it was, it was a Roman villa from the Augustan Augustan period. And it was coast, it was coastal and they had, they had literally the whole thing. It is still, it still needs a huge investment because there's a lot of excavations that need still. They are on hold. So because it's the villa is situated between the coastal area and marshlands. But anyway, we're backtracking to to the touring. I, I, I thought primary school pupils and I also had foreign tourists to, to visit. And so I'd say for me that was a my first lecturer lecture experience and, and then just for the PhD, well, teaching art history of portraits and portraiture for key Stage 7, seven and eight pupils. That's so cool. And you've got to take the commas out of tort because I had experience. No, you have to because it's something else when you're in the landscape and you're in the space and you're having those conversations about the material and the space around you. And some of my early experiences teaching throughout the PhD as well involved joining. There was an organized trip by the University of Bologna. They went to Cyprus. So I joined them and I, I gave some lectures and sessions as part of that. And that really stayed with me. And I, I, that's part of what I'm, what I love doing now here at Swansea's. So, so, yeah, the, the, the confidence was the thing that changed most. I love that you had that exposure to kids earlier on because they're crazy at that age as well. They're unpredictable. You know, it's different type of register and engagement to say, teaching in a university setting or as part of that context. So that's really cool to hear that. But yeah, in terms of when I did my fixed teaching contracts, I didn't have much choice in what I was teaching. I was like filling the gaps for people who are on leave or filling the gaps in terms of what was needed in the syllabus. So I was often teaching things that were completely far removed from my research expertise, which was very nerve wracking and I had to do a lot of sort of, I had to adapt a lot to that. So it was really only at Swansea that I really had the opportunity when I got the permanent job to start teaching my own research. So what I've really liked, and I love this about our department, you know, classics, ancient history and Egyptology that sits within history, heritage and classics. I've been given space and the opportunity to get Cyprus into the syllabus from undergrad level. And I, I just love it because there's not many places that does that. And it's, and I have really learnt from the students as well. And I've, I've been conducting a research project on how you use critical walking and engaging with the landscape and how you develop resources to engage students with the landscape. And my undergrad students have been part of that project. You know, they, I interviewed them, they looked at material and I'm at the stage where I'm writing that up. So that feels really collaborative. And I always get really nice responses from students when they've studying Cyprus as well. So that feels really nice. I think if I had to think about an initiative or having an impact, for three years I was undergraduate programme director at for the for our the ancient side of the department. So that that was a big admin job in terms of I had to really learn how to work with colleagues to develop leadership skills. I was making or leading big decisions on the direction in which the curriculum was going. I sort of steered the department through a process called quality review. That was like a baptism by fire in the first year of role. So that was a lot of a lot of paperwork, a lot of working with colleagues, you know, doing my best to represent the department to an external panel and talk about what we do, how we work with students, the collaboration there. And then we've had a major overhaul of our curriculum as well. So for for me, in terms of having an impact, and this speaks more about my colleagues than me because of how the dynamics are in across our three subject areas, which is classics, Egyptology and ancient history. I really got to learn about my colleagues as part of that process of being undergraduate program director. I really got to learn about the particular quirks and the profiles of the different subject areas. Yeah. And it was, it was just, it was a tough admin job to have, but it really, it was a really important one in terms of my own personal development. And I feel really proud that we've worked together in a way that we've, you know, revised the curriculum and the new first year is going to come in in September. So I'm no longer program director, but, you know, we'll over the summer, I will be working through what, you know, the the granular details of delivery and that type of thing. So it feels really cool that I I was a prominent role in that whole conversation there. So yeah. I guess that I guess the the whole department if develops itself and it's just a matter of unity and know, know, know each lecturer and how can they how can they work together? How can be more dynamic to those who who are coming every single every academic year? Yes, yes. And we have to adapt and change. I mean, you know, a lot of our a lot of our focus as well. Obviously, we want to deliver interesting and inspiring content, but we want to really make sure that we're equipping people with, you know, as much as we possibly can so that they can go off and do whatever it is they want to do once they have completed their degrees with us. And, you know, be prepared for what's out there. You know, doing a classics degree, people, I mean, the number one questions we get at open days are around, well, what can I do with a classics degree? And I say classics to describe the three. Subjects. The three subjects. So, yeah, I mean, I know this is terrible, but I always say you can do anything but operate on someone because a humanities degree is so enriching. You know, it's obviously there are obvious career paths that people follow or pursue and it could be in archives, it can be teaching, it might be further studies, it might be in the heritage sector. There's, there's, there's things like that that are really relatable and you know that people understand that, but you know, it, it, it's, it can be a bit harder sometimes to try and explain, well, you can do this degree, but you can go on and go into, to law or we've had people who go on into nursing, We've had people who go and set up their own businesses. You know, people, people are wonderfully equipped if they've done a humanities degree. There's a lot of it's the critical thinking, the curiosity, communication in different registers. So all of these things, you know, priorities that we've been thinking about over the last few years and we've been thinking about how we design, what we do in the teaching setting and how do we design assessment. It has to change, you know, society changes the needs of, of, of people coming through the doors and being part of the student community that they, they change constantly. We can't just be fixed, you know? I think to be. Mindful of that for sure. I do think that's the universe. The university concept itself is just as we were saying initially with the PhD has gotten more dynamic and it goes way beyond, beyond obtaining knowledge, but also other things that you can do within university. Obviously going to, I don't know, JCS for example, for a social for a social gathering or playing Katyn when Stephen brings the the the the board. And yes, exactly. Right. And and I feel like, oh, OK, but maybe maybe establishing a nation history podcast within the department, maybe something in the horizon soon that could could come up, could could come up. I don't know. It must be a bit too much, but I don't know, it's just would be. Oh, Louise, as you know, with everything, with academia, a lot of it is extra energy and it's running like anything in the arts sector, I would say a lot of stuff happens because of goodwill and extra work that people come in. And there's so many fun, awesome things that I think that we probably all love to do. But there's also tensions between, you know, boundaries in terms of work life balance. Yeah, there's, I've got so many things that I think would be really good or sort of side projects that are shelved or in folders on my laptop, that type of thing. So yeah. But I think one of the great things that the department provides opportunity within, within, within the budget. And given all this whole crisis of budget cuttings in the, in the humanities apartment, there's still something that that it is possible to do. And I've just seen that I, I still, I, are they still travelling to, to Greece at the moment? Isn't it just how? Students are in Greece. They are in Greece, right is with them. That's not part of the syllabus, but the student society have put together an itinerary. And you know what, these are really awesome skills that they've applied to this. They, they, they put together an itinerary. They worked with Maria based on recommendations. They sorted out a budget, they worked out a plan. They've recruited people to go on the trip. They're out there now. It sounds really staffed, but you know, I've been really enjoying looking at the social media stuff that they're producing as well. So they they're thinking about communicating what they're doing. They're doing it in different registers. They're doing it in a fun and engaging way. There's so many skills in there. And it's not just about skills, you know, it's, it's just the, the pure enjoyment that I'm, you know, seeing when it comes to the students pulling together and doing these types of initiatives and working with each other across year groups and building that community. You know, it's, it's fab. I love it. I wish I was there. I, I wish I was there too. And I mean, back in my undergraduate, we, I didn't have this opportunity except going to Erasmus. So that, that was the, it came just it that it's coming back. Thankfully it's coming back. And yeah, I do. Those are the type of things that you, I mean, if there isn't, you're just trying to create something, create an opportunity to increase this sense of sense of community and obviously networking opportunities as well. Without thinking. I have to do networking. I have to do networking. That thing will come naturally, I guess. And so with the travel to, to Greece, well, well, I never went beyond Germany W which I just stood my stop wasn't, wasn't until Germany and well, I'd say Sweden, Sweden. I've been in Sweden before, but that was the the pit stop there from going even eastwards. But that that will be the time for, for, for that. I, I, there is, there is time for this. And because creating opportunities and there there in Greece also comes with the, the social media. Do you, are you, do you run at the same time with other, with the other lecturers of the department or are you taking most of it? Oh my goodness. So social media. OK. So, yeah, it's, I mean, social media has changed so much as well, hasn't it, Louise, in terms of, you know, using different platforms. And I mean, if I go back, if I think of the pandemic, we had to really switch up what we were doing quite dramatically and really go online. And at the time, there was a core group that kind of LED LED this. And it was Stephen Harrison who was the main leader of this, Ian Go, Maria Pretzel and myself and then contributions from the department. And we worked on our YouTube page. So we have a profile there. So that was, that was something that was really, you know, intensely worked on throughout the, the pandemic. We haven't really done much work with that because it's, you know, the, the, the landscape has changed so much. Obviously Twitter, when Twitter was Twitter was a really great space to have positive exchanges. And we had a lot of like instantaneous fun with Twitter, with lots of different communities engaged in the ancient world, whether it was sort of people in the wider public who were interested, whether it was schools, teachers, museums, that type of thing. But we all know what happened with Twitter and it became a space that didn't work for us over the past few years. And this is more streamlined with what the university is doing and of course, has been Instagram. So Instagram has been something that we've then turned our attention to. And Maria Pretzler has been managing that for the department. And we have, she's really curated and captured the joy of, you know, the student community and, you know, the research excellence and the activity of our, you know, different members of the department. So it's it's become a really fun space for us to do things and sometimes we have the daftest conversations about what we can put on this platform. Sometimes out, sometimes they just disappear into nothingness. But, you know, yes, it's a really great space to capture the community, but it's, it's a lot of work as you know, I mean, doing a podcast, you know, it's a lot of production that goes into this. So in terms of my involvement, I'm not leading it so much anymore. But whenever I have a post that's appropriate, I share it with the department, or I'll gather materials and supplement what Maria's doing or what other colleagues are doing. And social media, My goodness. I mean, it took me a while to make a decision to have be on the platform and be on Instagram. I mean, you asked me a question about early experiences of teaching and what's changed. I mean, this is the the agenda element of this. It just being very candid. It took me a really long time to figure out what my academic persona and identity and professional identity is. And that's very different when you're a young ECR and you know, a woman and navigating that field. There's things that you can and can't do, all things that will land a certain way and things that you will get critiqued for in a way that perhaps other colleagues might not. And that was always at the back of my mind with social media as well, because you sort of see and hear the horror stories in terms of responses to women who have a position where they're an expert in something called they have a passion and a curiosity or how they present themselves. It can, you can be very vulnerable when you're putting yourself out there. And that's applies actually to so many people and communities. So it took me a while to get onto Instagram, but I, I, I made the decision that whatever I posted would be about work. It would be about my research. I would give some insight into my private life because I want to get across, you know, naturally as possible, my personality. And that feeds into, it's quite hard when you're an academic, isn't it, Louise, to to sort of disentangle personal and work because you're doing this thing because you're weird and you've geeked out something that only you really, really care about. Yeah, it's true, isn't it? You've got to kind of untangle that a little bit. So I've got, I've got boundaries on social media that I don't cross. Like, I won't, I'll mention my son, but I won't mention, I won't put pictures of him up, you know, because I think it's, I need to be honest as well. You know, I have a young family and that's part of my identity as well in terms of balancing what I'm doing with work and where I draw the line with certain things and some of the things I can and can't do and the decisions I make around that, It's part of that's the whole picture. So, yeah. So I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing on Instagram. I, I, there's no fixed formula, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm trying different things. I'm going to try and speak to camera a little bit more, but I get a bit nervous about doing that so. I do remember that time when I started only with audio not long ago I started with camera. Even though I do have I do, I do have some excellent public speaking skills as an as an introvert. As an introvert, I just wildly develop and that comes from my undergrad which where I teach lecturers encourage us to present any topic of the of each module, of course about any topic in front of a public. And I think that boosted me to be more comfortable in front of a camera or just in comfort or in front of public. And I think that's that is also brought me to to do what I'm doing. But also as a matter of trial and error. As I mean, even those so-called influences nowadays, they all they started somewhere. Some of them already had means, some others didn't. But I think it's just a matter of trial and error and see where the where this goes. If it goes well, we can continue. If it's not going so well, we can trying to make it positive, right? And so I think with, as you said, with Twitter X, you needed to need to have a change. And with Instagram, this has increased the the the followers metrics and people just students interacting a bit more, checking everything things about curiosities about ancient history classics. They they've idiotology, they never they were never expected to meet being the lecturers, being more open minded and being and exposing them not exposing, but having their online presence more often to introduce. I know not long ago John Rogers, he was sitting right next to me writing the thesis and now he's covering Christians module while he's on research events and don't know what's going to happen. I haven't heard of him in a while. It's just like keep saying sending me texts and saying Oh, and when we go for a pint and he hasn't replied to me ever since. But I do believe that on. We need to both write to him because we keep. We kept on saying we'd have a coffee in it. Our timetables just really didn't work out this time. He was very busy this time. And I do, I do. But, but the, the bottom of the bottom line here is that now with this booming of social media, people are more looking for online presence, online attention. I do believe within the boundaries, obviously I do believe that the next generations of students coming entering university each year, they I think they have this expectation to know a bit more about their own lecturers. Yes, yes. I mean, this is it. This is such an important point you've made because I always want what we're doing to be accessible as possible. And I, I love that we teach and work in an environment where students are comfortable to speak with us. It's very different to how I did my undergrad and many of my peers would have gone up in terms of their studies. So I really love that aspect. And teaching for me and what we do in the department is collaborative. It's not this one directional, you know, you know, sort of dictator style. This is, we do things this way and this is it, it's, it's a collaboration, isn't it? And that's the best way to share and develop knowledge and that type of thing. But you're absolutely right. I mean, a lot of my followers are students, so there has to be a barrier and a boundary there. You know, I mean, I quite frankly, I, I love the fact that a lot of my growing up into development, it's, it was a time where social media wasn't a thing. So we did everything and it's undocumented, you know, So yeah, it's great, you know, but now, you know, everything is online and it's a concern, isn't it? What do people do with your image or, you know, how are things utilized or how are people then accessing and finding out further information from you? So there's all kinds of intentions there to be mindful of, but I think for me, keeping it professional is, is, is the best way for me to manage it. And I mean, what I love, you know, Instagram seems to be the place where a lot of people are communicating. And I have personally found Instagram a really wonderful platform to connect with other scholars working on Cyprus and connect with artists and connect with the Cypriot diaspora and institutions that, you know, spearhead work on on Cyprus. So for me, it's been such a fantastic professional space to meet new people. And I get so many messages in my, you know, private inbox on Instagram. And lots of things have come out of that, you know, and it's, I love it. You know, that wouldn't have been a thing for me had I not taken the plunge and been on there. But what, what I really like is, you know, a lot of people in the department have their own profiles. So obviously you spoke with Stephen and he's got his own Instagram profile and he, he does brilliant stuff on there. It's, it's not what I'm able to do, but I'm just, I just love seeing how people are creative and creative in different ways and find their niche in terms of sharing information and sharing their curiosity and passion about, you know, the, the, the field that they're working in. So I I take a lot of inspiration from what people like that are doing. So anybody listening, if you haven't checked out Stevens page, check it out. You know, yes, you post some really awesome stuff on that he does. He really does. And I think not, not I think a few days ago he was, he was in the, I think it was Singleton Park and he was doing a video on I've. Seen it, he was. Yeah, I've seen it, Yeah. It was so it was so cool. Talking about giving the context of of his research on came in at Persian. Oh my God, so funny. Not in an office. Not in an office. It's not in an office and it's outside the plain sight and nice weather because currently it's nice weather. Louise, I'm hanging off a Cliff in Paphos, you know. Yes, I'm not in my office, but yeah, it's just, it's just fun. We've got to have a bit of fun with this stuff as well. You know, I think it's really important to engage people and breakdown barriers. No gatekeeping. I always keep saying this. No gatekeeping. No gatekeeping. You know, it's this knowledge is for everyone. No, there, there's, there's always knowledge available for anyone and share this share that and in a fun and engaging way. And I'm seeing and I've seen in with the department and how long since I've started doing my masters back in 2019 and almost 7 years full and I see look at how big it was. It is right today and with more PhDs also coming in too. I mean, what else can we get? Louise, can I ask you A. Question. What what prompted you? What led you to set up this podcast series? When I was accepted to when I was enrolled into a PHDI said to myself, and this is goes, this goes back in 2020, I was still doing my masters and I wanted to, I was experimenting, talking about on, on a podcast on a podcasting setting and say doing some little experiments. And I said to myself, if I get into a PHDI will start this podcast. And so it happened and I started to do the structuring the how it's going to be the episodes. Obviously it started the first with 45 minutes, but then it it decreased through to three plus minutes to shoot insightful content about the universe of PhD. How is this? How, how does it take to this path? How it can help you to increase your networking skills and so on. And so that's that. Started in 20/21, the time I started my PhD until now. And so thank you for letting me ask you a question. And no, no problem. Yeah, I suppose. I mean, you were, you were starting that really intense studying. We were coming out the pandemic, yes. You know, so I suppose like I said about the department's YouTube channel at the time, we were we were sort of turning more towards online platforms to connect with people as well, because doing it in real time was, was, was, you know, in the same physical space was, was just impossible. So, so, yeah, that was, that's, that's really cool that you did that. And yeah, I mean, you've, you've persisted with it. And it's, I do appreciate what work goes into a podcast. I've had some experience of what goes on behind the scenes. And yeah. Yeah, to. Maintain. It is really impressive. I, I, I really wanted to start first with PhDs and then I've expanded the concept, the broadening broad, broaden the concept. And I was like, this time I need to invite lecturers from the department, whether it's humanities department, but also from STEM. I think that that would be nice for me. At the start. It was a bit at, not at the start of the podcast itself. Obviously it was, it was hard as always. The first episode was the pilot episode. I was still playing around with the, with the, with the software I'm still using and now just enter it into video, which a bit is a bit more simple than ever. And, and for guests. I mean, I wanted to start with PhDs from Swansea and I still do it, but now I've been a bit outside of Swansea and outside of the UK respectively. And at first, it's better to not invite lecturers first. That would be something at the latest stage. And I throughout the PHDI didn't want to say anything about the podcast to Nigel yet until I would, I would finish it and say to Nigel and wanted to say to Nigel in the meeting. Look, Nigel, you've probably seen on LinkedIn and Instagram what I do, and you probably know that I have a PhD launch podcast. And I think he knew it throughout the PhD, but he, we didn't want to, to, to share that insight at first throughout the four plus this, these four years of the PhD. And so I think, OK, let's invite Nigel and Stephen to jump on boards. And this would be the first, the first lecturers of the whole department. And now you're, you're having it with me and I'm just planning to do for, for the next, for the next months, for the next upcoming months. Bab I watched that episode and it was honestly, it was so great to listen to their separate, you know, perspectives of of the landscape now. And you know, how they got into, yes, studying for their PhDs and what it looked like for them because they were talking about two very different systems. So I think, you know, I really like that you've created this space where we can talk in ways that not isn't, you know, doesn't necessarily happen in the workplace or out of it because we've got that time critical things that we've got to address. So I actually learned a lot about my colleagues from listening to your podcast, and I speak to them a lot and I thought I knew a lot about them anyway, so I really enjoyed listening to that so. Yeah, no, I think, I think it was a great episode. And I mean, the more the more the merrier and and I think we get to know a bit more about about the lecture. So whoever's listening to this, then Ursin is sharing insightful content. He. Wouldn't say that. But no like insightful content, but within within the countries of course, and but this will be as also a great opportunity for current undergrads, masters and even PhDs go whoever will whoever student would do something about Roman Cyprus. I don't know would you have? Did you have someone already or? In terms of PhDs. Yes. No, not yet. I've I've acted as second supervisor for several students, but in terms of first supervision, the biggest challenge is, is the the last the the lack of like funding? Oh, OK. Just going to be really honest, you know, we, we, we struggle with that element. So I get a lot of enquiries. But yeah, so hopefully one day. One day. But I have lots of really great conversations with people about projects and ideas and yeah, so we'll see. We'll see. And because we were talking about social media, you've been also appearing in media broadcasters. Well, besides, beyond the classroom. I wanted to ask you, So what? What, what draws you to share your work then with a wider audience? And how talking about classics, ancient history change when you speak to the public versus teaching your own students? And yeah. Goodness. So in terms of why I want to do it, I like doing it. It it pushes me to to develop my skills and, you know, think about how I can communicate the ancient world using different registers. Every time is different. There's not a fixed formula for doing this stuff. Well, I really enjoy these more relaxed sort of podcast conversations. I really like doing this type of stuff. In terms of another reason why I do it, I think it's a really important responsibility that I, I take very seriously. I think I think we should be telling people in the wider community what we're doing in a university. We need to debunk some myths. We need to be accessible and approachable and we need to, you know, bring something that we are, you know, holding, you know, this knowledge. We need to take it out there. And again, no gatekeeping. You know, I, I, and I also think it's an important thing to do because I don't know everything. I don't ever assume that I am of the expert and know everything. Every time I do a workshop, Every time I do an object handling session, every time I do an interview. Or a talk. I learned so much from the audience and from those interactions that I have with people in those downtime conversations or over coffee or whatever form that takes. So I see it as a collaborative thing. Again, I don't see myself as someone locked away in an institution, sitting on all this knowledge and privilege. It's got to go out there and it's got to be for the people. And yeah, I've, I've learnt an incredible amount. I've been very humbled by some of the interactions that I've had with the wider community, whether that's school children, whether it's just public talks that I'm generally giving, whether it's very specific workshops that I have planned and delivered with other people that focuses on Cyprus and works with the diaspora. So those are my reasons. Live radio is really stressful. More stressful than podcasting? Yeah, it was. I mean, I, I appeared on, I appeared on London Greek radio for like a very short segment and the host, she was just, she is, she's so lovely. Vasula Christadolu, she is just wonderful. And she was such a generous host. And I felt so nervous because at the time I obviously, you know, you've, you've got to be so careful in terms of what you're saying because once it's out, it's out. It can't be edited afterwards, but I, I have asthma and I, I was recovering from the most horrific, you know, virus. So I was coughing all the time. But she was fab because she, she kept, she kept putting in these music breaks. So I'd then like cough like mad when the music was happening. And then it'd be like 321, you're back in And then like having and he was a really high stakes pressured like few minutes live on air. So I had to cough when the like interim music was happening and then talk normally. So a live radio. Absolutely hats off to anyone who does this live. I mean, yeah, that's just a different ball game. You've got to imagine so on it, you know it's a different, different level of presenting and communicating. I think that's also reflects on on on live television or in even in documentaries about ancient history where they they have the knowledge, but they they know already they can't explain everything and the language that they have to use has to be as if they were doing saying in mediatic things, so using. Sound bites. Sound bites TV, state TV statements as as, as, as I think, as I think many people would assume that it is. I do remember I was watching an analysis of the, of the, this Netflix documentary about Alexander the Great. And obviously Llewellyn Jones was the, the household name for this type of documentaries. And the analysis was spot on. And many people were, were doing backlash. And I believe they, these were people, they were bots or people craving for attention. And indeed, they didn't offer any constructive criticism about the content that they were watching. It was just splashing words, words, words, endless words and saying one of the historians I follow said what he's saying, what Llewellyn Jones is saying is ATV statement. He knows his audience, he knows what he's doing and he's been doing this for decades. He knows what to say mistakes he will make it. And he's, I think he in, in his mind, he says, I know this, but obviously double check me, right? But this is, this is my work, this is my job. And it's, I need to preserve this, this image as an, as an ancient historian and sharing things about Alexander. I mean, there was a huge backlash. And I don't know if this was intentional of saying Alexander was gay and all of that and saying no. It's just mixing the the what is currently happening, what with ancient World, which is a completely different thing. I mean, Stephen is the best person to ask to talk about this so. Yeah, it's really, it's really hard because you, you, the message of what you're getting across, it's going to land differently with different people. And I think again, you, when you put yourself out there, you have to be prepared for lots of positive interactions, but you have to be prepared for negative as well. And I've, I've certainly experienced, I've had some experiences where things have been negative. That's been sort of some public talks, that type of thing that was very early on in my in my career. But yeah, it's, I mean, you do have to do a lot of work to make sure you're communicating in the right way that makes people feel included. And it's a skill to present information, not just present it, but it's about having a conversation about that information. Because again, it's not a one way thing. I don't ever want to go into a space and just lecture people about something. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a multi way conversation. So yes, there's, there's lots of different ways in which one can do this. I mean, whenever I get asked to do a talk for a public group, I've got 1 coming up in November, I tend to ask what it is they they're interested in rather than just going in and assuming what the topic should be. And then I sort of try and make sure that it's it's, it speaks to their particular interests, but also there's room for them to have a conversation as well, rather than me just going in and delivering something one way. So so yes. So of all the radio talks you've you've you've done so far, did you have any? Were all of them were your favourites, or if you have to choose one, which one would you choose? Well I've done 2 so 1 was the live radio. I did one radio appearance for BBC Science, BB Radio, Well, Science, which was based on this exhibit that I've got in Swansea town centre and Oriole Science that again was really relaxed because that was just that was pre recorded and I had AI had a feel of what to do for that. Because obviously as part of our job teaching, we are, you know, we're communicating constantly. We, you know, whether it's in different types of teaching sessions. So pitching the responses is, is part of that skill set. The one thing I love doing, which was 10 years ago now. And if ever an opportunity came up like this again, I of course I would would do my best to be able to do it because my personal circumstances have changed now. But ten years ago I found myself falling into this role where I was Co presenting some educational videos for GCSE students and we I did 4 of the 8 videos. It's called Romans in Focus and we we did all this filming at different locations across the UK, but we also went to Rome and we went to Austria to do a lot of filming as well. So they're all available online. I can't watch them really. You know, a lot of me like talking and walking, pointing at things. But I really loved that it was just, yeah, that exposed me to what production looks like. And again, for something to look really slick and natural, there's a lot of hidden scaffolding. So it taught me a lot about the types of things that the the producers behind the scenes were doing in terms of their planning, their organization, coordinating lots of people, working with, you know, a camera crew was really good fun. I really enjoyed that project. I have lots of happy memories of that project. So yeah, that's something I'm really proud of. Would you share one, just one bit of recording that you've done that you found most, most exciting for you? It would be that you could you could you can watch them online if you so want to. We did these videos where we were walking around Ostia and yeah, what were the ones I did? I did Roman religion. I would, I think I did one on living spaces. What else did I can't remember now. I did one on childhood for that. They're like 5 minute videos. They're really, really short. I can't, I need to go back to the website and remind myself. So yeah, I really I. Really enjoyed so that I can put it on the show notes. I'll, I'll send you the the link. I think people still use those videos. I'm quite surprised 10 years on. Yeah, it's nice. I would honestly, I didn't expect I would ever do anything like that. So I guess the thing I would say if you get these opportunities, do it. It pushes you to try new things. I did one on the Army. That's it. I was in, we were in Vindalanda. So yeah, it seems all coming back to me now. Yeah, it's it was just, and, and I made really great friends as part of that process and I'm still in touch with these people. So yeah, it was good. OK, nice. And I believe that as, as we're saying initially at the pot, at the at, at the talk, just getting any opportunity you have either throughout and after the PhD until you get your foot on the, you get to the opportunity both feet on the on the door, on that door that you open. So I think, I think there's, there's a lot of things that we still need to know about throughout the PhD and getting prepared after the PhD. And so with all this experience until now and your your current employment, your current experience, what advice do you have for and for the listeners or even to this to your current students who have recently graduated or asked about to graduate and if they want to do a PhD, what advice would you share and to give to them and give to them? I guess it's don't ever stop being curious, ask questions, question everything you know, do follow your passions in that respect in terms of the sort of like the specific parts that people pursue once they've completed their undergraduate degree studies. The world is your oyster. And I, I think have confidence in faith in your abilities. And I think in terms of those, I mean, I say that because, you know, in terms of the teaching at Swansea and my experience of the people who come through our programs, I, I have every admiration for our students because they are juggling so many things. They're, they're pursuing their studies in this time of great uncertainty and they work incredibly hard to work for their grades. And I see a bunch of, you know, youngsters that are young adults, they come out of their degree and they are incredibly skilled. And it feels really great to be part of a department where they have that opportunity to develop skills and find their passions or their interests, not just within the department, but through other communities that they build outside and the opportunities that they make and that they take as part of the the Swansea community. So yes, there's that and graduation is one of my favourite days of the year. I love, I just love it so much. It's just so much fun. And yeah, it's really great to clap and see people walking across that stage in their gowns and then meeting their parents afterwards as well. Often we've spoken to them at open days, but it's great to see them at the end of the process as well. In terms of people pursuing further study, I'd just say don't do the PhD with it in your head that you're going to get a job. It's nothing's guaranteed, but just be curious, be passionate about it, you know, take every opportunity that you can and make the most of the environment and the the community that you're in. I mean, again, I said this earlier on in the talk, one of the things that I have every admiration for is the work that our PhD students and our community, the work that they do, you know, they like I said, they're doing things that I never conceived of doing as a PhD student. And they've made it happen themselves. You know, there's pull together, they've organized conferences, there's a framework there for some of these things to happen. But like, look at yourself, Louise, you've set up this podcast, you know, you're bringing people together, connecting them. These are these are amazing things that you're doing alongside your intensive geeking out studies as well. You know, you know, make, you know, don't rest on your laurels. You know, make the most of every opportunity and be flexible because you don't know what's going to come afterwards. And I'm not going to say hang in there because like I say, I get very frustrated by that type of advice because it assumes wealth and privilege that isn't available to everybody. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a case of talking to people, building your network. And I'm, I'm not talking like oil slick, you know, networking. I'm talking about genuine conversations with with people in the field that are either going through it at the same time as you or people who have secured work in different sectors. Because I'm not going to lie, like there's loads of us here. And we want to see people to succeed and we want to help them and support. And we will have the conversations and we will brainstorm and we will mentor. You know, we're here. That's what we're here for. Yeah, I think that's AI think that's that's a really great message to to those while tuning in and to also to to the current to the current students that they have finished their exams and I'll just they are waiting for for their marking for their final results. So still this this movie is still. They're still marking to do and still. Got a bit to do. I. Think you'll be finished today? I promise. It's great. I love it. There's been I was just great. Projects come in. I'm not joking, it's brilliant. And Speaking of projects you had, you have your own monograph already. And yes, what's the name of it? Revaluing Roman Cyprus. I'm laughing because I was I It got published in 2021. It wasn't the book I wanted it to be, and I say that because it was I I was heavily pregnant. I submitted the manuscript. I went on maternity leave, the pandemic. I had my son in the depths of the pandemic, so I was editing the book. It was like late at night with a newborn baby. It was just, it's such a crazy time. When I think back to it, it wasn't this beautiful, calm, you know, moment where I was sitting with this work that I'd, you know, captured for years. It was, it was very frantic. And yeah, I've got strong memories at that time. So yes. So any upcoming projects that you have? Too many, I can't say no. Any, maybe any upcoming book then? Yeah, I've got, I've got a book contract with Liverpool University Press with a very patient and understanding editor. So my second work is focusing on the cultural value of metal in Ptolemaic and Roman Cyprus. So that's pushing my skill set to different directions. And I'm, I'm addressing things that I didn't get to address in the first monograph. So that's, that's an enjoyable project. And then, I mean, my, my research profile, I guess is split in two major ways. I've got the ancient history of, of the island that I focus at the culture and society and the, you know, the, the economic sort of landscape. And then the other work that I've had space to develop whilst I've been working at Swansea has focused on sort of contemporary responses to collections of Cypriot artifacts in institutions outside the island. So predominantly focusing on the UK context. So yes, there's there's work on that that's developing and I've been running workshops and engaging with the different communities over the past few years in a very stop starty way. But there's space now for me to develop that a little bit more intensely and push that type of work a little bit further because there's lots of really key conversations happening across the broad about the role of museums. What are museums doing connecting with the communities? And there's lots of really important conversations to be had about Cyprus, the demography there and how people view their colonial past and what it means for them today, particularly if they live in spaces like the UK, like myself. So this is, again, you know, it's, it's a, it's a space where I feel quite vulnerable in many ways because it personally affects me as well. But I have to, I take myself out of that because it's all about the people who I connect with and their responses. But that again, it's just, you know, such. Fascinating work. And I don't see it as a fixed project. I see this as a lifetime commitment and I take that really seriously. So yeah, it's what's the cheesy phrase? It's a marathon, not a Sprint. So this this work is just rumbling on. And I think I think that's, that's an excellent way to, to wrap up and for the students out there, just just keep, keep doing what you can and reach out to erson as well through there through student hours for the next academic year. Or if you are around Swansea, then just send an e-mail and then just go pay a visit and talk about any projects that you want to work. Maybe an idea just for the department as well. That would be, that would be great. I get. I think so. Yeah, the more, the more we speak with our students, we take it very seriously. Otherwise, what is the point of what we're doing? Yeah. No, that that's true. That's true. Well, Larson, thank you so much for for this amazing, amazing talk. We have to do this again, and I think the best thing would be you and Eve the other. Examples to have to have. To have to have a chat. Pressure on Eve now. Yes, next week I'm going to Cardiff to to, to have A, to have a drink with her and then going to say, I'm going to say to her, why don't you join and join them on the podcast and then talking about your experience and how is it like to go from Canada to the UK? And so that would be that would be amazing. But where to follow the Instagram? What's the name of the the Instagram account of the from the department? Where to follow you? Yeah, Fab. Thank you, Louise. I really appreciate the time you've given me today just to have a chat. To be honest, we need to let you say do this more. Yes, we have. Yes, the department's Instagram is at SU Ancient World and mine is just my name. It's Arsene Hussain. So OK, you'll find me embedded in the department's account somewhere as well. I think well person, once again, thank you so much for for having the time and for the students and graduates tuning into this podcast talk. Thank you all for tuning in. It's been a pleasure. Yes. Thank you.