Late-Night Talk: Jack Cooper, PhD. Megalodon, Myths, And Modern Shark Science

Jack Cooper, it's great. It's a great pleasure to have you here on PhD launch. And we've been speaking a lot on, oh, you have to come to my podcast. You have to come to the podcast every single time, even doing the talking research. So welcome man, and it's great to have you here. Oh well, thank you very much for having me. I've definitely been keen to come on here for a while now, so it's great to finally be here. Thank you very much. And just noticed that you have your Lego shark right behind you and those who were ship, could you just tell us what what it is about? Is it the Megalodon or it's so great white shark? So this is actually the Lego Jaws set. I I unashamedly did. My girlfriend bought this for me from Legoland for my last birthday and we made this just over Christmas while we were both sick and what had had a whole bunch of Disney movies in the background. It was a great time. Yeah, so I can see what, because Jaws, I think it not. It wasn't not long ago, or maybe it was last year, that they celebrated 50 years of the film. Yeah, that's. Right. A friend of mine invited me to go and I said OK, he never saw Jaws in his life. And so have you seen Jaws? Yeah, I've seen it in VHS and also on on the telly several times. I never saw it. So it's just 50 year celebration and yeah, he's gonna is about all about sharks. I can't believe there's somebody on the side who hasn't watched. Jaws. No, no, Jaws is a classic. And also we were talking about Sharknado, the sci-fi. Oh yeah, like a whole series of sharks flying. You feel like, oh, these are Pegasus from the sea. There's a there's a spectrum of shark movies. You have your masterpieces, which is basically just yours and nothing else, and and then you have your utterly ridiculous movies that are so bad they're good, like Sharknado. And then you just have your terrible ones, like mega sharks versus giant octopus. Wow, I do also know that there's a few other ones as well that I've seen this last. I think there was the last one. What was the last one if you have in memory that appeared? There was there was a Sharp movie this year, I think, about sharks entering a crash plane. It had Ben Kingsley in it, but I'd forgotten what it's called. And I know a couple years ago there was a Netflix movie about a shark in the river in Paris or something. I didn't watch that. Really. Well, well, if I know a recent film takes back to ancient history, Gladiator 2 and this this this one was mind boggling. You, you become dumbfounded because there was never sharks in ancient Rome and and Ridley Scott decided to fill up the arena with water, which they actually indeed existed naval battles in the in the arena in the Colosseum, but filling it up with water to do a naval battle where sharks of any nature of any species, sorry, were swimming around waiting for any any sold any gladiator to fall down and getting eaten afterwards. So that that was why, why is this? There's no sharks there. There were no fucking sharks in the in in ancient Rome. This would be a great topic for for Jack to analyze. Well, it would be, except I never actually saw Gladiator 2. But all I heard about it, yeah, all I heard about it was this scene where there's sharks in the Colosseum. And I I'm not an expert in Nation Rome. My first was. No, I don't think so. I don't. I also heard the CGI was not good in that scene. Yeah, I think those yeah, there was no, no really good some CGI effects on the naval battles. And I think it's just only one that happened. And also the representation of 3D animals isn't there was no way that that rhinoceros battering towards the towards the main character and getting his horn wrecked in order to die. Yeah. So that what happens to the to that poor, to that poor adult rhinoceros? This this is making me want to watch that too though, no? Go for it, I I won't stop you, I won't stop you, but I also are the ones don't know if you have seen a mech. Oh, yes, of course. Not only have I seen the Meg and Meg to the Trench, I actually as a teenager was an avid fan of the books those movies are based off. So it's it's yeah, it's a lot. Not a lot of people know that they were based on books, even though it does say in the credits based on the novel by it's by an American orphan named Steve Olson. And it's interesting, the books, they take that topic a bit more seriously, which I can see an audience for that, but they do get progressively sillier and sillier of each book. I think there's been six books in the series now there's a seventh form coming. But the films, to their credit, they know how silly that topic is and they just go for it. So when people ask me what do I think of those movies, I say Meg one is stupid fun and I have a great time with it. Meg 2 is just stupid. It's a really bad. Movie, I mean, and anything about sharks they, they have this this sensational vision which we we will go any further when asking the question. But I, I, I believe any prehistoric animal that to the, to the modern day, they become just so sensationalized of this animal is bad, so we must kill it. And so all kind of thing, which is also quite interesting because of the, the hunt for fin soup. And then interestingly enough, that the fin soup kills even more people than the actual shark, any shark interaction and unprovoked bites or any other source of nature. But we, we go further on that one and then asking about. But first I'd like to know how this passion for sharks LED you to go for a PG on paleobiology. You've talked to me about the Legos, but do you have any other any other thing underneath your sleeve? Yes. So my interest in sharks, I think we can date back to about 2003 and I would have been about 6 going on 7 at the time. And this I was very much in my dinosaur phase already this point. The only holiday we could afford to go on to at the time was to go to London and I would always beg to go to Natural History Museum and it was free. So I haven't said, OK, a documentary show called Sea Monsters came on to the BBC that I think it was that autumn. And in this program, this zoologist named Nigel Marvin would quote UN quote time travel and he would scuba dive with the CGI recreations of these prehistoric animals. And that was already pretty cool in itself. But but one of those animals he scuba dived with was the megalodon. And to me, it was absolutely mind blowing that such a gigantic shark had actually existed in the grand scheme of things not that long ago. And since then, I wanted to like know everything I could about this animal. I would pick up light people, some sharks just to find the megalodon section, but weirdly it coincided with a bit of a fear of sharks at the time because I watched Jaws at far too young an age and did it in the cupboard so I never had to look at it again. But that interest in shark sort of formulated from Megalodon and then from a later appreciation of jaws as I got older. And that sort of led me to decide that I was going to study biology, which took me to the University of Saint Andrews to do a degree in evolutionary biology. I don't know. I did not actually work on shark Atham. I actually worked on fruit flies, believe it or not. I did get an opportunity to intern in South Africa in the summers of 2017 and 2018. I went down to the cage diving industry there and dived with great white sharks up close and it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I can still vividly remember the day I first saw a great white shark. And they tell you it's never just the dorsal fin, that's just in George. You never see that. But it literally was seeing the dorsal fin first in the water. Was it that quite big those those great white trucks in South Africa? The biggest ones I saw that were alive, and there's a key distinguishing there and I'll get into it. The biggest ones I saw that were alive were about 3 1/2 to 3.8 meters long. So they were big, they were tanky and the biggest one I saw was a 4.1m male that had actually been killed by a pair of killer whales at the time. We got to dissect the body. These two killer whales called Port and Starboard. They do appear in the news pretty much every time they kill a shark and they had started to appear around 2017 and we got to see one of the bodies. Never saw the orcas, but I saw the damage they did to the to that poor shark. So yeah, following that I was like, I've seen the great whites up close. I definitely want to stay on sharks, but I still had an interest in paleo biology and the fossil record. So I went to the new University of Bristol, which is the natural place people go if they want to study paleo biology. It's got a brilliant programme of master's students there that for the last 30 years or so. And it was there where my sort of career came full circle. I met a researcher from Swansea named Dr. Catalina Pimiento and she is the world leading expert on Megalodon. She is the only person on earth with two postgraduate theses that are based around Megalodon. And yeah, so she and her collaborator, Bristol professor Mike Benton, were doing a project on Megalodon. So I sent a prophetically lawn e-mail basically selling myself detailing why I should be on this project. And amazingly, it worked. So I I came onto this masses project. We published it and having such a great experience doing that, I want to continue working with Catalina, who literally is, I emphasize the experts on regular Don and she was actually at the time looking to start her own live group. So she needed her first PhD student. So we had a, we can't have a project we found funding with the Fisher Society, the British Isles, who thankfully confirmed us right before we went into lockdown in 2020. And yeah, the rest is history at that point. I moved to Swansea later that year and did a four year funded project on the functional diversity of sharks. And you can actually read that features now on the Swansea University portal if any listeners are interested. Yeah, go to Cronfer. That's the name, the name of it. He has a DOY. Also have a DOY, but carry on. I know so that's amazing. And from it's and as you actually said, it was a the circle was completed and you'll be able to you've been you'll be able to realize that everything went down to the way you've ambitioned to it and saying, Oh, my love for shocks. Now it's coming to a reality of having Dr. Catalina Pimiento the the world's number one on on Megalodon and now keeping doing this type type of research. But at the same time you are educating the general public, students across university, those who are also might be maybe also interested in studying sharks. And do you still run some workshops? Any public speaking? I do do a fair bit of public speaking, yeah. On top of my regular job here in Bristol, I do have a freelance career where I go to universities or museums and I will talk about sharks and particularly Megalodon. There's an exhibit in Edinburgh right now called Giants, and this is based on Giant first organimals in the last 66,000,000 years. It was originally an exhibit in Brussels, Belgium that and I was the consulting megalodon expert as they have this incredible spinal fossil from Megalodon in their collections. They wanted to display alongside all these giant animals. So now since that particular zip was so successful, they've recreated it with casts of the fossils and they've sent it to the UK. So I gave a talk in Birmingham when it was there about Megalodon and about sharks. And I also volunteer with a group called Sharks for Kids. It is this great organization that specializes in teaching children about sharks in various schools. It's based in America, but it you can do virtual lessons and in person lessons and it's basically anyone who's interested in sharks can join up. So I do occasionally give talks to school kids in my capacity as work for Sharks for Kids, and my most recent talks included one just in Swansea actually. Why? We visited a school I used to cycle by every day to go to the office. Where was about where? Was it in Swansea? It would have been in Sandfields and that so yeah, very, very cool to go back there and actually see the school and talk to these kids who are very, very excited about sharks. Yeah, I do. I agree on that as well because we as shouldn't we get get some fascinating from some of these gigantic sea animals that that sparks a curiosity. Oh, do they bite? Oh, why do they kill anything? Like do they kill actually people? And the first contact I had obviously went through Jaws and seeing documentaries on Discovery Channel with my dad and, and he told me once when I was a kid and I asked him, do do sharks kill that? Do do sharks kill people say No, they don't. They don't because they explained to me the situation. So kind of a quick lesson from simple biology for sharks. And it was like, no, they don't kill sun because they hate human flesh and they don't eat, they don't eat that type of meat. They only eat fish and any sorts of algae, algae if I'm, if I'm, if I'm not wrong, I'd say the only types of seaweed and any types of fish. And when they sense any human flesh, they just bite. And for them, they're tasty, sour and so they escape. That's that was the basic explanation I received from my dad. And another one as well is when they eat, they close their eyes some sort of that. So that's that's what I received from from my dad. But you are able to explain him a bit more. Yeah, he's basically got the gist of it. That's a very, very wise voice of your dad. Basically, and also sorry Jack, and also not just Discovery Channel, but also from the documentaries of Jacques Cousteau. He has, yeah, my dad has, has a huge collection of VHS from Jacques Cousteau. And I'd say, Oh my God, I never thought that he's really cultivated to to be easy. Yes. From sharks, Maritime life of Jacques Cousteau and also the space, basically, yeah. The planetary system, yeah. Yeah. So basically, yeah, basically to get what your dad was saying, he's basically right. Yes, it the bites of sharks on people, they do happen. And when they do happen, we hear about it because it ends up in the news. And we have had a few incidents this year, but they are exceptionally rare and especially unprovoked bites. And the idea that sharks don't actually like human flesh is totally true. When I was cage diving in South Africa we used a tuna head and tuna slick oil as bait and thankfully we do not smell like dead fish so the shark wasn't really that interested in US. The most bites either come from being provoked or if they're unprovoked it will more times than not be out of curiosity. Because a shark doesn't necessarily know what you are and the only thing it has to test what something is, is it's mouth, which unfortunately has a lot of sharp teeth in it and therefore causes injury. And generally what the shark will eat will depend on the species. Most sharks will eat fish or small animals. Great whites will eat seals and very occasionally go for bigger marine mammals. And actually, as your dad alluded to, as he was alluding to before we knew this, he mentions algae and seaweed. Now, it was only in 2018 that there was a new paper that found that a type of hammerhead shark known as a bonnet head was mostly eating sea grass. And we didn't know this until then. So there is absolutely at least one species that is more, we'll say more vegan than meat eater. And that's quite a fascinating thing. And I suspect there's probably more about that we don't know about. Well, it's kind of quite over diversity, as you said, and everything that is that you say about sharks. For me, I have to completely agree. I cannot disagree on some sort of thing, but I was, I'm curious how many species of sharks exist in the world? Did you have also this question from the audience that you never expected to? I have two questions in what? Yeah, I have occasionally. That's how many sharks. Never. And it sort of depends on whether you can't raise or not. Raids can often be called flat sharks, but they're very, very close relatives of sharks. So if we go for your typical sharky shark, there are well over 500 species alive today, and then another 600 or so if you can't raise. So basically, in just about any square foot of ocean, there's probably a shark somewhere nearby. They live everywhere, and they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes that they don't all look like your typical scary great white shark. In fact, the vast majority of sharks are quite small critters, and an average Joe might look at them and not realize they're a shark. And so besides the the hammerhead shark, the great white shark and the megalodon, well, the ancient the ancient shark, what are the typically known sharks? Can, can, does, the human? The general population might may know about it. So what I'll do is I'll go across there's nine different orders of Shark and I'll briefly name some examples from them. The oldest are called the cow sharks and these are sharks that have these very weird lower teeth like your 6 gill sharks that live quite deep underwater. You have Bramble sharks, which are very poorly known species. They're like suction fetish sharks living near the bottom and they get quite big. You have your typical dogfish, your spiky, spiky dogfish which you will see people occasionally fish out in Swansea, or your lesser spotted cat sharks, which are also small species that we get on the coast of the UK. You also get what's called Angel sharks. They are these flat, almost carpet like sharks that you can find off the coast of Wales, but they're extremely rare because just about every species is either endangered, data deficient or critically endangered. We also have what we call sore sharks. These are very rare, poorly studied sharks that have these lawn rostrums or like big lawn almost snap like appendages on the edge of their faces. And those are 5 just different groups of sharks. Although the cat sharks are part of what we call the ground sharks, which include things like tiger sharks, your oceanic whitetip sharks, your bull sharks, that's the most diverse group of sharks. The ground sharks and the last other three orders I can think of. We have bullhead sharks. There are these small nocturnal sharks live on rocks. We have what we call carpet sharks, which are all sorts of sharks that have sort of vague, flat resemblances. That's the way you get your epiluent sharks that can actually walk on land. You get your gigantic whale shark is probably the most specialized to the bunch. And then finally, my favorite group of sharks is called the macro sharks. This is an order of sharks that have only 15 species, but they're extremely diverse. You have your great white shark, you have your Makos, you have the basking shark and the megamouth shark that you plankton. You've got freshers that have these extremely long tails they whip prey with, and you also have sand tiger sharks and tiny little crocodile sharks and also the goblin shark, which is often rather tragically referred to as the ugliest shark. It's so fascinating that men get lots of species of sharks. They are roaming around the world and I never thought about it because we know that the UK is the seas in the UK are quite are violent and they're cold as well. I never expected to hear, hear, know about any shark species roaming, roaming around the UK or even up in the North Sea or somewhere along those lines, because I thought the sharks would only inhabit, were only inhabiting warm waters. I mean, especially in United States, the Caribbean Sea and even even in the Atlantic Ocean. I do remember one, we had a shark and it was a baby shark. I don't know what that species, but I was sunbathing in my hometown in Faru and there was a lot of people by the coastline and the the lifeguards over there. They said you have to keep away because there's a shark coming here. And the people were people were curious and checking around. But I think that baby shark was was distressed, probably was lost in in the family in the moms and the mom and the brothers, the sisters brothers, the mom, the whole family and probably was trying to find his way its way home. So have you, have you ever any head of any sort of encounter like this? I've never had an encounter like that, but I do see it on social media occasionally. And we do sometimes see a shark, like near the beach. And yeah, sometimes it is distressed and then it ends up getting beached. If yeah, Oh no, it's very rare for a shark just to end up on the beach. It might usually be right in the shallow part. And then if it ends up further up the beach, chances are somebody's pulled it there. Generally, it's hard to say what the shark might have been looking for because shark families are not that caring. Sharks do not show the rental care. They either lay eggs or lay or give birth to live sharks. And then they just leave them on their way, say, right off you go. And so generally for for sharks, it's every man for himself basically, apart from very occasionally we get some species that will form groups that we call shivers. And that might be because they're in a mating season or it might be a search for food. It's hard to say. There's so much we don't know about the vast majority of shark species. But yeah, I can't say I've had any encounter like that. I've been to, I've been to beaches, but I've never actually seen a shark at the beach. The, the best, the closest I would have gone is maybe in South Africa in Muscle Bay. We did see the carcass of a dead seal there, and I don't believe they've been killed by a shark, but the surfers there have are very, very aware that they're sharing this beach with great white sharks. But there's never been a fatal bite in those beaches in Muscle Bay from a great white shark. The only fatality I know of was somebody scuba diving at Seal Island, where the sharks are known to hang out. And I think that's just a bit of a silly thing to do, as sad as that is. Yeah, I don't believe so. Again, it draws back to that human curiosity to see something they did. They've they've either never or rarely witnessed. I was also interested in knowing about this, this thing, this. So not only if it's some sort of a tale or something like that, but I've seen on television that when the mother shark is pregnant and he's about to hatch the eggs, right? There's this some sort of what is it called any killing spree from the baby sharks inside the mother's womb when they're about to to to hatch. Is that some? Is that? Is that an? Is that true at all? Or? So yes, but only yes, but only for a specific group of sharks. So sharks, actually, one of the things that makes them so interesting and diverse is that they have at at minimum three different modes of reproduction. And that's something I don't think we see in even any other vertebrates. But what you're thinking of is a form of reproduction called cannibal vivid parity. And this is only seen in macro sharks. And it's basically like you say, it says the the babies come from the eggs inside the mother's womb. And then the babies that are already hashed will ultimately eat their unborn babies in the womb before they're hashed. We see this in sand tiger sharks. We think we see this in other mackerel sharks like great white sharks. And it's also thought that megalodon did this too. And the reason we think that is because their babies that were born were massive. They were already probably more than 3 meters long. And to put that into perspective, that's about as big as a teenage or sub adult great white shark. And we know this both from the fact that the smallest teeth correlate to that size, but also the vertebrae. We could use grains on the vertebrae, a bit like tree rings, to count how old the shark was when it died. And when we correlate that against how big the shark was, we can back calculate to the first band, which would have been the shark size of shark at birth, and figure out how big the shark was. And those calculations from that Belgian specimen suggested that particular shark was about 3 to 3 1/2 meters when it was born. So yeah. And the only logical kind of reduction that would allow for babies that big would be that form reproduction where baby megalodons were eating their siblings in the womb. Wow. So, so this is quite, quite a evolutionary biology here where there's huge, there's lots of sharks that are about to hatch, but only a few will will survive. So it's quite of a infanticide inside the mother's womb. So just to test who's going to who is more able to survive out in the wild? Yeah, and that would make megalodon what we call a case selected species. They don't. They likely did not produce very many babies. We obviously cannot say for sure how many because we don't have a time machine to go back and watch a megadon give birth. But most likely they were producing quite small litters. But those babies were big and had a good chance of survival. Well, I. Mean that's amazing. I have no, I have nothing to say about the about it and but I most besides that we can learn from it. We can learn about from the megalodon. I was I wanted to to know more about what is this megalodon? What's what is its origins? How long did it survive and how? What can we learn from the megalodon in order to study or any other shark species? OK, so there's a lot of things that make Megalodon so interesting. It's origin would have been in a time called the Miocene Epoch, which lasts between about 23 million years ago to about 5 million years ago, exactly when Megalodon evolved. We don't really know for sure, but the oldest fossils have been dated to anywhere between 23 and 18,000,000 years ago, and then the youngest fossils occur at a time called the Pliocene epoch. The youngest megalodon turf we know of is about 3.6 million years old. So that tells us that megalodon existed probably for around 20 million years. And that is a really long time for what was essentially an apex predator to exist for. And one species notably, it basically originated from a long line of sharks, both the megative sharks, which were these big sharks that only got bigger and started to diversify their diets over time. And we have or told us oblique whisper about 66,000,000 years ago right after all the non avian dinosaurs kicked the bucket and they were probably big fish eaters. And we know this because their teeth are multicusped. They have tiny little cusps on the side, and they have no serrations. But as we get more species, we have at least 5 on total species in total, including megalodon at the end. And as we go through time, those teeth get bigger, those tiny cuffs on the edges disappear, and the teeth become more serrated. And it's possible one of the theories for that is that maybe it's because they were changing their diet and starting to feed more on marine mammals, which first evolved around the time the serrations come about. So this was basically a long line of sharks that was getting with the times and getting bigger to eat more diverse prey. In terms of what people find interesting in megalodon, obviously it is that gigantic size that stands out most of all. The most recent science that calculating maximum body length of megalodon estimates about 24 meters or 80 feet, and that is enormous. And even the lower estimates of maximum megalodon are already massive. So that is a pretty almost mind blowing thing to think about. But all the other things about megalodon and what I find interesting, like the fact that it lived literally everywhere you can find its teeth on every continent except Antarctica. We think it was also likely a migrator swing from one end of the ocean to the other. And we think this because it was probably eating a lot of energy by eating whales that would have powered that. And in the last five years we have started to find teeth right in the middle of the ocean, which might indicate that they were the teeth fell out when the shark was swimming there. Now, in terms of what it is we can learn about other sharks from Megalodon, the number one thing I go to is the effects of extinction. Because megalodon, we know from these clever geochemical studies that have looked into their isotopes, they've shown that Megalodon was eating pretty much whatever it wanted and it was at the very, very top of the food web. So this means it had a huge ecological role in regulating tray populations and keeping ecosystems healthy. So when megalodon became extinct, there was a ripple effect through that. And we see that whales actually get bigger. These biggest species, like today we have the sperm whale and of course the blue whale. They do not evolve until after Megalodon becomes extinct. So a possibility for this is that these whales were able to get bigger and do whatever they wanted without having to worry about a giant shark eating them. And that might indicate that the the structure of the food web totally changed from that. And we actually see that today in South Africa, where the great white sharks have massively declined. And we, for a while, we thought it was the killer whales that were causing this, and they've certainly not helped. But the bigger killer has been actually been overfishing and fishing programs that have taken sharks out of the ocean, only a few at a time each year. But they've done it for so long now that the numbers are so low and we're not seeing any sharks. And what this has done, it's caused smaller sharks and Cape fur seals to explode in populations. And that sort of throws the whole food out of balance. So we think that this was occurring on a global scale through megalodon. And we're starting to see parallels of this in places where we're losing sharks today. And I think that's an important thing we can learn from megalodon. We what happened after this huge giant went extinct? And what can that tell us about what might happen if we lose today's sharks, basically. Probably would give birth to to another evolutionary form of of new species. New shark species has been happening across his across across the Natural History. In many ways, yes. And when you look at the multiple mass extinction events that make that sharks have survived, we do see a pattern that's generally the smaller, more generalized species that survive. And I'd say the biggest threat sharks have ever faced is probably us, and particularly through overfishing, which has caused their global populations to halve in the last 50 years. And now over a third of all shark species are friends of extinction. And what we, I suspect that whatever happens at the other end of this did, there will be some small generous sharks that survive. And sharks will carry on probably well beyond us. So at the same time, why would we gamble with that and just go out and kill 100 million sharks every year? So I think it's, it's a very fascinating thing to study and that the loss of Maidon can tell us that. And it's something that I tackled in my PhD. One of my final chapters was about how functional diversity will be affected by the ongoing extinction crisis for sharks. I can't say much about the results because the paper is still in review, but I I don't think it's a spoiler to say it's not looking good. Yeah. No, I do believe that anything that goes in that is about to get extended is all is done by by us essentially. It's quite interesting because first of all, yeah, sharks fear us because we are, we, we are consumers of shark, whether whether we agree or not. And that's we've been talking previously because that because of the fin soup and also shark meat. I don't know if that's also true. So I think it's important to specify that while shark fin serp and Sharmi are definitely contributing, it is a bit of a misconception that shark fin serp is the biggest cause of shark declines. It's actually, I would say it's more broadly overfishing of which shark finning can be, can be part of that to some extent. But generally these enormous, essentially factories on ships, big commercial lone liners that have these enormous Nets that troll up everything in their path, often including sharks, whether intentionally or otherwise. And I think if listeners want to watch something that demonstrates that, the best thing I can recommend is a film that came out last year called Ocean with David Attenborough. And of course, we have to mention the great David Attenborough, who turned 100 this year. Last year, he did a film talking about the importance of the ocean, and he talked about these commercialized fishing as parts of that program. And it showed us just how damaging these trawling Nets are. And that is a big, big factor in overfishing and it ultimately impacts sharks. And it's the biggest driver of that current extinction threat. And I would say that probably applies to a lot of other marine life as well, including. Whales. Yeah, I imagine so that. That that that mostly in we encounter them at the, at the, at the, at the, at the beach, at the seashores. They So that's also plays a huge factor and learning also from the megalodon is another interesting factor in order to understand shark behavior. And you just said about with their human interactions, they fear us and they also they are also hears of us. And he said as well that that curiosity stems from and provoked bites. And I was interesting to to know about it that I checked, I was checking this yesterday at the Florida Museum's shark attack and I saw a file that only 9 fatal bites occurred in which statistically speaking is relatively low. So there's no threats. But there is this consistent claim that we know it already and this consistent claim of the media and any other features of pop culture sensation. And this is not sensational but over sensationalize sharks and shark interactions. Whether it's through nowadays AI generated films, sorry, AI generated videos, movies, podcasts or any other sort of written media and create content creation. I would like to ask, why do we still have this reception of media sensationalism and why the general public still think that shocks kill humans despite it's the contrary? Yeah. And I think it's that's a very complex question. In many ways. I think it would be naive to say the film Jaws played no role in that because it was the highest grossing film of all time when it came out and it basically invented the summer blockbuster. But at the same time, it's definitely far too simplistic to blame just one film. I think that's a get out of jail free card some people play. I think it's far more complicated than that. I think it is down to how our wider media ultimately perceive and the way they portray sharks. And that's probably been going on since long before even Jaws came out to some extent. One of the things that Jaws was inspired by was a series of shark attacks in New Jersey in 1916. And that was a big, big, sensational story at the time because I think three to five people were killed in the space of a week. And when a great white shark was captured, the killing stopped. So people thought correlation is causation, therefore it was this one shark. And that's probably not true because one of the killings was in a river where it's more like to win a bull shark than a white shark that did this. And I think pretty much since then, or maybe even before then, there's been a general instinct that when a shark is written about, they have to use certain key phrases. You'll see words like mould or monster, for example. And I think that is somewhat irresponsible. It it's an easy way to get clicks these days. You'll see it in basically most newspapers and there was some I can definitely think of the top of my head that do it more so like your Daily Mail for example. But even even those other newspapers that might be a bit closer to my own political leanings are not innocent of this either personally. So I think it comes down to what will generate the most sensation, and it is portraying these sharks as monsters when really they are complicated, complex and fascinating animals we don't know very much about. And I think ultimately that fear comes from a lack of understanding of these animals. That's not to say that they can't be dangerous. Of course they can. If you go out to sea and you poke a shark and try to give it a hug, you are definitely putting yourself in danger if you do that. So to anyone listening who might want to die for sharks, do not do what Ocean Ramsay does. And don't be an arsehole either. Yeah, absolutely. Like just obviously like literally assholes that they go out to the sea, they do diving and they just want to grab the spine of the shark just to right, just to get it right. Yeah, that that would be your Ocean Ramses who essentially buy sharks for Instagram clicks and then claim it's conservation, but despite not taking part in any action for conservation or when they do, they take credit for the work of indigenous people. I if people want to go to my website, you can actually find a whole essay I wrote about the Netflix documentary about Ocean Ramsay called Shark Whisperer last year. And it is it is an absolutely dreadful documentary that nobody's ever watched. It's so misleading in how it portrays this person who has actively harassed scientists, who've criticized their behaviour and has a very dedicated fan base who claimed they canvas shots. And I think to some extent she does. But at the same time, why are you not sharing that that those videos you're taking with scientists to provide helpful data and actually tell the stories of these sharks? It's it's really got a sense of it's someone selling a brand more than conservation. And I really wish that wasn't how it felt, but it just is. And also riding sharks and trying to pub them is just wildlife harassment. And somebody is going to get bitten if you keep doing that. Yeah, I think it's just like we we like to test the waters and then see how it goes with the sharks. Yeah, go on. Yeah, and ultimately that becomes that risk swing is in the opposite direction where people say you you want to get a right bound. Sharks are not monsters that have to get us. The data clearly shows that. But they're also not cuddly teddy bears and you shouldn't go out and try to write them. So I think the best way to do this is just understanding how how important they are for the ecosystem, but also acknowledging and respecting the fact that they are predators. And that means that we should be careful around them. But also, if someone really really doesn't want to risk a vein by a shark, you can just not go in the water. Yeah, just don't go into water. I mean, you have, you can see sharks in, in maritime museums, They're alive and like in, in, in zoos, basically in maritime zoos, right? And that is the best way, best safe to say, yes, let's see a shark. But we can interact, but interact by distance. No need, no need to just touch the shark. Just leave it to the specialist in order to study them, which they are more trained and they are more cautious and they understand their psychology. Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting because there has been research showing that if someone goes and touches a shark which tries to write it, it can actually cause distress in the shark. And there's telltale signs that there was sort of bite at nothing, for example. And in this awful Netflix documentary, we see some sharks doing this, and they play it off as like, oh, the shark's charging her, but actually she's redirecting it. It's like, no bullshit. That shark is that shark. That shark is that shark is potentially feeling very, very stressed because there are people swarming this animal. And something that they love to show in the stove documentary, but they never actually talk about is this huge whale carcass where they filmed a really big great white shark, which they falsely claimed was a shark named Deep Blue. It wasn't. It was a totally different big great white shark. But what they never mentioned is that that dead humpback whale would have been a great source of food for sharks. And when that footage came out, idiots, for lack of a word swarmed that together to with their cameras netball saying we need to get pitch of the sharks that are here. And that drove all the sharks away, which meant that those sharks lost a really valuable source of food. That's not helping shark conservation. That is just like antagonizing sharks behaviour and sharks sharks behaviour and the ecosystem. Yeah, absolutely. Because you've just robbed them of survivor's source of food while pretending you're helping conserve them. So yeah, there's a media has a very, very big role to play in how we view sharks. And I think media can be an extremely powerful tool for whichever feeling, both for that fear of sharks, for Jaws, or for that fascination of sharks, which I would argue was also caused by Jaws to some extent. I know so many scientists who got into sharks, myself included, in part because they were inspired by Jaws or the character of Matt Hooper, for example. Any other documentaries as well? So the ones from David Attenborough for example, and also those from Discovery Channel I've seen before. Yeah, Discovery Channel used to be really one of the highlights for that. They've gone a bit off the rails recently. Most infamously, about 12 years ago, only 13 years ago, they had a documentary that claimed that Megalodon was still alive and there were scientists studying it. And those scientists were played by actors. It was all bullshit. They only had a, they only had a tiny disclaimer that it was fiction. And then they bragged about how many views it got and asked people, do you think Megalodon's alive now? And it was nonsense. That's not education. That's just lying. But. From the from the the the talks you were featured on the other podcasts that I've you've. I think you've said that the, the shocks, the megalodon has gone extinct for over 3,000,000 years. Was that so? Yes, right. So yesterday I was this is I was dumbfounded and it's like, so if what? So the megalodon, this guy, it was a it was an AI generated video and I've seen tons of megalodons, the giant, the most giant 1 + a smaller ones. Obviously it was generated. They were eating whale, they were eating a great white whale and he was explaining the behavior. He was explaining how the strategy of the megalodon in order to trap the whale alongside before the fellow megalodons. The megalodon would start eating the whale, but not entirely to concentrate its energy, but at the same time getting the whale to bleed it out until until dying. And so the the rest of the sharks, including the giant megalodon, would eat the rest while the whale, while the whale just lay down passed away. And there was this final question. They say, is the megalodon still alive? They got the the producer said it's up to you to decide to that, but we can't. But there was like this assumption that the megalodon still lives among all the shark species and this is some kind of CGI shit and I need to I must report this to to Jack and see. And curiously, I saw when was this posted? It was posted yesterday. Wow so so what's I find so funny about this? Is that what the way you're describing the video it sounds AI generated. I can tell it doesn't. Give description the AI generated and the thumbnail was was a harpoon holding the megalodon with with an amount with a big quantity of people around surrounding it. So what's? I mean, I that to say that question you mentioned it says the end it's up. It's up to you to decide if mega Ron stores or not. No, it's not. It's either it's either it's and it very much is not still alive us, we know this. Yeah, I think, I think he said it. I I want to be 100% sure, but then you take your own conclusions. But I'll, I'll send you the video. Yeah. So it's interesting because there's been like a sort of myth of megalodon survival for probably decades. And that's probably dates back to people seeing whale sharks hundreds of years ago and not knowing what they were. And people have only megalodon has only been documented a species for about 200 years. But it's really kicked off in the age of TikTok AI videos and it's all it's all nonsense. And I think Shark week has a has a big has a lot of explain to do for their documentary contributing to that. But at the same time, I think people are fascinated by the idea that such a gigantic animal only went extinct about 3 million years ago. That is really not that long ago when you consider how old some ancient animals are, like dinosaur extinctions occurred about 66,000,000 years ago. That's a long, long time. But at the same time, like when people say I've, I've only ever been asked to my face a couple of times if Megalodon is could still be alive and my go to in my head, I'll never say it to them to their face, But it's come on, use some critical thinking. And the reason I say that is because if we just stop and think we're talking about a gigantic shark that lives mostly in coastal waters and we love the beaches and we love filming ourselves with the beach with our thorns, We would have seen it by now. But also the fact that with the hundreds of millions of sharks we're killing from overfishing, the largest sharks are most vulnerable and that means we absolutely would have netted A megalodon by now. There is utterly no reason for any government, for whatever reason to cover up megalodon's existence. I have been told in a YouTube comment section I'm part of the conspiracy covering on megalodon. Like, oh, where's my money? I was like, sorry, imagine thinking that any UK government present or in the recent past, none of those governments were capable of that. And and that's not even beginning to talk about the current U.S. government that is gutting protections for wildlife. So, but also if we take the story in the Meg where there lived in the Mariana Trench, well, the life down there is mostly microscopic and that would not be enough to sustain 1 megalodon, let alone a whole population. And finally, by far the most common thing you'll see on the Internet is, oh, but the Ocean's only 5% explored. Well that statistic is not true. It's considerably bigger than that because we have explored the oceans for shipwrecks, for looking for species. And a good example I think is in the Indian Ocean where there's been that enormous years long search for that missing Malaysian plane where we've learned so much about what the bomb industry looks like in pursuit of trying to find this plane that they have still not found. So ultimately, we have explored more of the ocean than people think and we've not seen. It's not that, guys. I'm sorry. I wish it was, but it's not, no. We're probably going to eventually. I mean, obviously more than 5% of the ocean has been explored and we've been able with our current technology to deep dive into the into the dark of the ocean. And we managed to find the fish Lantern, for example, I think it's called like that. But there are other species we can, I mean, we've seen there, we've seen go pros, well more advanced go pros going down to the bottom of the ocean to film any species, any new species that we never imagined to, to discover that could be more evolutionary sharks in the future. We don't know. Of course, and that so it's. It's important to specify that. Are there species leaving deep in the ocean that we don't know about? Yes, of course there are, and that there are going to be new species, probably including new sharks that we haven't discovered yet. We are. There were new shark species being written about every year, but that doesn't mean the species we haven't seen are these gigantic whale eaters that were the top first of the entire ocean. I think it's important to distinguish that it will point to the sealer camp, which was a fish that was thought to have gone extinct in the Cretaceous during dinosaur times but was then found in the 1930s. And that is an incredible story exceeding at the fossil records. It's just non existent in the Cenozoic. But again, that fish was not a gigantic super predator. Yeah. No, I do think that it's been, it's been. It is amazing. It is amazing. And the more we know about the ocean, the more, the better we get informed about the species. And I think we also become less fear, less fearful of these, all these species, including the the current sharks and in the future new sharks to to get informed and then talk in schools about and saying, oh, after all, they don't kill even though they think they still kill, but don't, don't kill. Yeah, absolutely. All comes back to improving our understanding of sharks. And ultimately we're not going to care about the conservation of something we don't understand. And most fear derives from the unknown and not understanding. So I think, yeah, it all builds up to understanding these animals more, and that's sort of the whole reason we do these sorts of things. But to ask as well, how, how was it like to explain about the Megalodon in other, in other podcasts? And you're, you've talked about, and I mean public speaking, what was it like to, to talk about the, about the Megalodon on podcasts, on any other YouTube videos? Oh, oh, I, I mean, I love it. I genuinely cannot get enough of it. It was my childhood obsession and I never in my wildest dream sport I would actually get to be studying it and talking about it so much. So yeah, I literally cannot get enough of it. And I really enjoy doing it and I love adapting the way I talk about it to the different audiences and podcasts. I might be talking about it to small children like I was doing just a couple days ago. The Sharks for kids or I might be to go on a scientific charity podcast like the World of Sharks podcast is run by the Save Our Seas Foundation. So the audience already is very knowledgeable about sharks at that point. Or perhaps some of my favorite experiences are either talking to people I already know personally, like yourself, who just want to know more than what I'm doing, or my absolute favorite podcast to go on is a podcast called Let's Chores for a Minute. Where these? Two, these two film nerds are basically talking about chores and I was already a fan of their podcast when they started and I just wanted I thought, hey, wouldn't it be cool if you had a person, a shark scientist on? So I asked if I could come on. And I've been on several times since. I have an absolute blast doing it, including an episode where we talk about the two Meg films and I get to talk exclusively Megalodon. An absolute blast doing that. What was the question? One of the questions that you still remember from the hosts so. The best question I've been asked and not to spoil your listeners is actually 1 you asked and the free scripted questions you sent me. So I'm looking forward to when we get to that. But I have been asked all sorts about like what Megalodon 8 and I was once, I was once asked, I think, is there any chance Megalodon could have been bright pink? And what's incredibly funny about that question, not just the image of it, but we've actually never found a complete skeleton of Megalodon. We actually have no idea what this animal looks like. I've put out a couple of papers explaining what we think it might have looked like. And albeit they might be considered a bit outdated now as there's been some new work by this. Great. Scientist named Phil Stearns, who has actually hypothesized the Megdon might have been longer and a bit skinnier than we fought. And that's potentially a whole new image to Megalodon. And so we think it might look like that, but ultimately we don't know until we find a complete skeleton. So that means technically, using the scientific method, we cannot officially rule out that Megalodon might have been bright pink. And that's why I find that question so funny. In all likelihood it probably wasn't, but we can't say for sure. Just like the assumption of thinking that the megalodon was actually pink rather than the OR the the known Grey's grey and white skin. Yeah, now in all, by all likelihood, it probably was grey white skin and probably counter shaded like all shots are. But it's just so funny that we technically cannot say no for definitive to that question. And that's I think that's why I love that question so much. It's like, damn, you've got me. I technically can't definitively say no. Oh man. That was that was a good one and really appreciated that you've shared that that answer when you answer to them that about the where the Megalodon was pink. And I also wanted to ask you about the because the megalodon, as you said and I confirmed that they were gone extinct 3,000,000 years ago. Does that also help them to living until that time by eating giant whales? Was that one of the major factors of their life extinction? Life extending and they're roaming across the world too. Yeah, absolutely. So Megalodon would have needed an enormous amount of energy to justify being that big. And one of my papers that I published during my PhD, obvious it was a side project, not part of my official PhD project, was looking reconstructing the animal where that Belgian spinal con came from. And we, we created the animal got its body mass. And one of the things we calculate from that body mass was daily energy requirements, albeit it was based on a relationship in the great white shark. And that suggested that a 16 metre megalodon, so about middle-aged, about 2/3 the size it could have gotten, and it would have needed over 96,000 kilo calories a day on average. And the way it could have met those demands would have either been to regularly eat smaller marine mammals or basically eat whatever it wanted whenever it wanted, or to occasionally feed on larger whales. And if it did feed on larger whales, which we know it did to some extent because we have fossils showing bite marks on these whales from megalodon. And what that would do is it would consume more energy than it needs, and it would store that energy in its liver, which would allow it to then swim across an ocean without having to eat again. So yes, eating big whales would have absolutely been a key reason for why megalodon could roam across oceans and live as long as it did. But it was probably also a double edged sword and likely contributed to its extinction as well. Well, I can. I can see that it has some great advantage to say that shark that Megalodon lived so far Lift so long to be gone extinct 3,000,000 years ago, which for us, it's for the for the general public, it sounds a lot. But speaking from speaking from a pile biologist perspective, it's not that long ago. Yeah, exactly. And the fact we actually still don't know definitively what caused that extinction, well, there's a few theories. And one of the main theories is that at the time, during the Pliocene, sea levels were constantly changing and ultimately lowered. And what that would mean is less area for megadon to move around as coastal habitats, it mean, But that also means less area for its food to move around, less areas for its nurseries where the babies might have been. And what that means is there's less availability of food for megalodon. And right as this was happening, the great white shark also evolved and was probably competing with baby megalodons for the same food. So what that would mean is less food variability plus a bit more competition. It means that the megalodon can't meet that huge energetic demand and in many ways, ultimately probably starving to death by the end of its extinction, which is definitely quite a nasty way to go for such an iconic animal. But ultimately, we can't say definitively what was extinction. That's just one of a number of theories. Well. It's going to be quite hard, then to find a the definitive practical, the practical conclusion of how, how the how the megalodon gone extinct. Yeah, unfortunately with most prehistoric animals it's hard to say what caused the extinction. They can't all be as easy as non avian dinosaurs. Well, we know a big rock came from space and killed them all. Now you know the World Cup is on the way. And. Have you been seen a few games or just the highlights? So it's funny, I'm actually not much of A football fan but I will be watching tonight because Scotland has their first match. I'm a, I've been originally from Scotland. You will know as well as I that Scotland does not qualify for the World Cup that often. We are really not as good as most other European countries. The last time Scotland qualified for the World Cup was in 1998. I was 1 going on 2 at the time I. Was I was 4 at the time when they when that happened. Yeah, so I am not used to seeing Scotland in the World Cup, so I'm absolutely going to watch the Scotland matches and I I believe the first one is tonight at 2:00 AM. So I will be staying up to watch that. And you know what, There's a sense of national pride behind qualifying World Cup. I'm not even a football fan, but when I saw they qualified even I was like, oh, that feels good. No, I do. No, I I believe Scotland would be would run a great campaign, even though they're they're in a hard in a hard group as well as any other group. They are, yes. The first based on the Haiti. I know they're playing Haiti tonight. Maybe, maybe they win that. I have no idea how good Haiti are, but I'm obviously good. They go over the world. Yeah. Morocco, yeah, we're probably not winning that, and Brazil, no chance. So they might. Yeah, I it, it. It'll be nice just to be there. Nothing they there's this possibility if they get in the the best third places they could run through the round of 16. But we'll see we'll see. But I twisting twisting the the actual World Cup, then thinking about we are this in this World Cup of wild animals. And I was decided, well, since it's the World Cup, why not ask Jack the best 11 you would put up front to to beat the World Cup of wildlife. So what would be your best 11 of Sharks and you as the coach and as the team captain? So when I mentioned earlier that the best question I've been asked was 1, You had a cup, It was this one I was talking about. And I, I put, I put some thought into this because I don't know that much about football. So what I've decided is I've got, I've got strategic reasons for choosing the sharks. I'd choose and hopefully listeners will learn a bit more about these sharks. So upfront for my for my 2 strikers I have the short fin Mako which is the fastest shark on record. So my logic is that shark will run for everything else and score the goal that that's my. And the second striker would be the great white shark, which is also a very, very fast species that has the same annotation as the short fin Mako that allows it to swim so fast and even breaches it, snatches food from under the surface and leaps into the air. So I'm hoping that kind of athleticism will aid the great white shark in striking for my 2 wingbacks you get on the side. I've gone mostly for aesthetic. So I've gone for the black tip reef shark, which is one of my girlfriend's favorite sharks, but also a shark you will very often see in aquariums. So I'm thinking that will be the, that will be the player everybody likes, the one everybody recognises. And then on my other wing back, I have the great hammerhead shark who the great hammerhead can actually detect prey actually moving around the sea bottom. So I'm hoping that will give him an edge in getting the ball as well. For my 3 midfielders I've sort of gone for sharks that it would be fun to watch some tackle over animals. I've gone for the tiger shark which eats literally anything I bet it can. It will eat all sorts of junk that gets thrown into the sea. So I thought the tiger shark can go there and take a bite out of whatever the opponent is. I'll I'll be at that tiger shark. We'll probably get a red card for doing so. And I've also gone for the cookie cutter shark, which is one of my favourites. This tiny shark that's like a parasite. It will swim up to these huge animals that are much bigger and take these perfect circular bites out of them. So that will also be a slightly filthy form of tackling. And then lastly, the fresher shark I was talking about earlier. So we can use that very long tail to whip anyone it's tackling or whip the ball perhaps in this case. And finally for my goalie and my three defenders, I've just gone for raw size. So I've got Megalodon as one of my defenders and that's the team captain. I've got the basting shark, which is the biggest shark we get off the UK and the second biggest shark today. Plus the mega Mouth shark, which is a bit of a mystery, bit of a little known shark, but also a big filter feeder. And then finally the gigantic whale shark in Go. My logic being just put a big shark in Go and nobody will score. So I think that would be a solid 11 and I think they would they would advance through through the group stages and then when it comes to the round of 16 and so and round of eight quote finals, semis and then the final, I think they would they would go on pretty well. And curiously, just while you were talking sharing about your 11, there is actually this PS2 game and can't remember the name. I don't have anything in memory, but it featured animals and there was this team that was, there was a, there was a game, a player that was playing a team of sea animals. Nice. I think it was dolphins. So. So presumably the blue whale was in goal then? Probably yeah, probably the blue whale blue whale was would be in goal and then a few sharks just on the on the wings and then a few dolphins as the mid as a lone striker at well. I mean that's that's the that's the R11 asides. So Rock, honor the World Cup and I'm. Pretty chuffed with that and I suspect they would do better than Scotland. That this also would be an interesting moment to say that you could choose those sharks to for the for the Olympics too. I do remember having seen something like that. That was an addition of the Olympics, but featuring animals across the world and shark. And the shark would beat any other any other type of fish in swimming competitions. Yes, great white shark in the short. Finned Mako in particular are very, very fast species and I believe shark. We did a documentary about if a shark could beat Michael Phelps in a race. I believe it could. Did you see? That one when the no, I didn't, I didn't watch. I didn't watch it. I know of it, and I guess I didn't watch it because it's all it's not really science, it's just sort of a cool idea. Yeah, it's more of a it's more of his reality show, the appropriate words for this. I would say it's more appropriate than documentary to describe some sharkweed programs. Because I know the when obviously Michael Phelps was competing against itself, right? Against himself, Sorry with a 3D model of a shark side by side and the only thing that I've seen that he used the technology with his swimming skills with the I believe it was the great white shark that he was using for the. Yes, for the tail. Right. And that's what they do. I do remember that one. I've seen it on the television before. Michael Phelps probably owes sharks quite a lot for a success. Many, many swimsuits used in Olympic swimmers. The fabric and the surface of those swimwears are based heavily on shark skin, because shark skin, shark skin is so hydrodynamic. So actually, I reckon our swimming Olympians probably owe quite a lot to sharks. Yeah, probably like that's what also one of the factors of this hunting this shark hunting for those specific things. But you should it should have been another ways of trying to use the swimsuit or trying to replicate the the shark skin through those swimsuits in order to avoid that extinct that shark extinction. Yeah, you'd want nowadays we have 3D modeling, 3D printing, which can be based on, say, fossils of the thermal denticles or specimens of the thermal denticles that come from shark skin. So that's probably a way to do it now, and I hope that's taken on board, yeah. That maybe in the future, who knows? See, we'll see how it goes. What was the like to be featured on Nikita's podcast Baffling Biology? I know you told me about it. So yeah, that's an interesting one. I would actually put a slight correction to that to say that's the masterminds behind Baffling Biology was Lucy Murphy. Nick was her Co host, of course at the time and the two of them approached me together. They were just starting it. I was actually on their very first episode and they later had my supervisor Catalina on it as well for a Spanish speaking episode, which I thought was great. That was a lot of fun to do and it was nice to do a podcast in person basically. I actually have the photo of that on my website even now. I had a lot of fun doing it and it was great just to chat about. And that was some really, really good questions from the hosts. No, I, I also watched it and well, her watch it, but there was no video, of course. But I, it was interesting to know, to know a bit more about sharks. And also Nikita was on the PhD lounge as well. He was the way, the way, the passion and the way you, you were speaking right now about your research about the megalodon was quite equal to Nikita's predation and predation system of monguses and meerkats. And he was explaining everything from detail to from detail how they would attract the monguses, how the how meerkats and monguses would interact. And yeah, that's, that was that, that's a, that's an episode. That's a talk worthwhile to to to to watch it. Yes, I've, I've seen Nick, Nick talk several times about his research at conferences, including in Swansea, and he's got a very, very good way of presenting. He's an excellent presenter. And yeah, it does. It does have a lot of credit. He's clearly very, very passionate. Yeah. And I think, well, I think it's just all the majority of the guests that were here, they, they were passionate about their research and not, not, not that I don't have many PhDs on STEM, but they will, they will be, they will come. And I do believe that there's plenty of them that I was, had had the pleasure to talk with. Not saying all of them were awful, all of them were good. They have their own different levels of, of engagement. But overall, I really enjoyed having many, so many guests to share their research. But beyond of their research, what made them passionate about studying that specific topic, not just the sake of the PhD? Yeah, definitely. And actually we went to various talking research in Swansea. And ironically, as much as I love seeing STEM talks, my favorite ones were actually the all the arts based ones. I loved the arts based talks and just seemed like why people were so into the subject they went to, whether it was say a part of history or say a culture, a bit of culture they were interested in, or even there was a PhD in creative writing, I think at one point or about like the history of Christianity, for example. I'm not even religious, but I found that so interesting and that those are some of the best talks I went to. And I think it all comes from a place of passion, basically, And I think it really shows when someone's passionate, and that does wonders. Even when I know nothing about that topic, I come away feeling I've learned quite a lot. Yeah. And I do think that we we always learn, we always learn something. And even though it's not 100%, but absorbing the whole thing, at least we get something in in that I think the the the the speaker, he was talking about Christianity and his novelty. I think he was on the podcast too. And yeah, I think he was a three Mt winner so. Oh wow. OK, now. But I was three years ago, if I'm, if I'm correct. So yeah, I might get in touch with him soon because I'd like, I'd love to have him again on the on the podcast to talk about more any updates of his thesis and any other things that he has been doing. Yeah. Well, Jack, I'd love to continue to talk about Megalodon and any other sharks pieces because I see you. Your passion is driven and it's right, right, right here. I'm just witnessing that. But I want to I'd like to ask you any advice do you have for those who want to do a PhD, particularly about sharks. Yeah. And that's something I've thought about a lot because I've had friends who have decided they don't want to do a PhD. I've had friends who wanted to do a PhD but unfortunately haven't yet managed to find their project. And I've had friends who've gone APHD but haven't had the best experience with it. So there's a lot of different things to consider in going for a PhD and I think. The number one thing is that you have to love what you're doing. You should not do a PhD just because you want to have a PhD or to just say, look at me, I'm a doctor. I don't think that's the right way to do it at all. Now I it's, we can't sugarcoat it. Doing a PhD is very, very hard. You will spend 99% of the time feeling like you are the dumbest person on earth. But that is, but that is OK. That is part of learning. And so I think the most important thing I would say is to have that passion, have that drive what you're doing because you can find a project in anything you're passionate about. But at the same time, it's also important to make sure you know what you're signing up for. And particularly if you're going to a certain university, you should have a good idea about who's who's going to be your supervisor because a good relationship with your supervisor can go a long way for making the PHDA good experience. I was very, very lucky and very, very privileged in the supervisors I had. As well as Catalina, I had Doctor John Griffin as my other PhD supervisor and the two of them are my wonderful team and they helped me in different ways and they are absolutely wonderful bunch. And I, I do not take for granted how lucky I was to have them because I've seen other people even in my very own department in Swansea have not so great experiences. I'm obviously not going to name names, but I've seen I I've seen people change supervisors because they haven't had a good relationship with their 4th, 1st supervisor. And I've seen people stick it out with that same supervisor and not have a great experience. And there is something to admire about that. But in many ways, if you have a good relationship with that supervisor and also of your passion, what you're doing, that is a great combination that will make your PhD really a wonderful experience. And I think I would also advise that be prepared to fail often, but it will happen a lot in your PhD. There will be setbacks. You will often go through the first year being like you've accomplished nothing and maybe beyond that, but you have done, you will have accomplished far more. So ultimately, my advice for a PhD in general is to have the passion and do your research about where you're going ultimately or where you want to go. But be prepared to go anywhere abroad, particularly when it comes to sharks, as there's not a lot of opportunities for shark research in the UK that I'm aware of. I know various people in shark science from the UK and many of them can often go abroad. There's some great programs in Australia or in the United States. Well, have a long remain if you want to go to the United States or not post Trump maybe. But ultimately I would say be prepared to have to go anywhere, which is a tough thing to do. I I had to go to South Africa to even get a foot in the door in shark science. But I would also say that for sharks specific PhDs, the same advice for a general PhD applies is to keep having that passion and to also do your homework about where you want to go and what sort of things you want to study. Because passion is great, but there's also going to be a lot of hard work involved. And I think with that passion, you can absolutely get through that and take that on the chin. So that's probably the best advice I can give to anyone who wants to do a PhD, including a PhD about sharks. And even in my particular case, I was looking at functional diversity of sharks through time. That was something that I really didn't know very much about when I started. I just liked sharks. But you can keep learning as you're going. You're always going to be learning, and I thankfully was able to learn quite a lot about function diversity by the time I was finishing. I think that's a that's a solid advice you get. And as you said, you keep learning even even during your PhD and after your PhD, of course, as the the only way you keep learning is you have to keep yourself active and maybe write some, write some, some posts on LinkedIn, for example, just share bits of your research, write articles trying to come up with a book project too, in order to share that that wisdom you've collected and produced to the general, to the general public, academics, non academics and so on. Absolutely, and make sure you've got other hobbies going on during PhD. Don't spend all your time working weekends. I I worked a few too many weekends in my PhD, but frankly where I would, I would often go climbing with my friend Matt and that was a lot of fun too. So make sure you make sure you maintain all your interests and a good support network if you're a star and APHD. Yeah. And that's, that's, that's a fundamental, that's a fundamental skill. The networking, just not networking for networking. It's just acted, acted naturally. So do you have any other upcoming projects that you're working on? So yeah, I've I've got a few actually. So I've got the last chapter of my PhD is still in review at the moment under in a scientific journal. I'm, I'm hoping that will come out this year, but I obviously can't say for sure. And I've got another project in peer review at the moment, which I won't say exactly what it is, but it is about a great white shark, which I'm quite excited about. It was a project that I did not lead. I was asked to come on board and it was a lot of fun. There are a couple of Megalodon projects in the pipeline, albeit I'm not leading them, and I'm very grateful for that because the best papers I've ever been involved in are the ones I did not write, in my opinion. So that so those are some of the projects I have coming up at the moment. And I will tease that I do have one big project bringing under the service that I don't think I'm allowed to say exactly what it is, but when I can announce it, you will know about it because it'll be all of my social media. That's a nice teasing for. You yeah, it's a, it's a big project. It's something I've never done before and I'm very excited about it. And yeah, I'm looking forward to when I can finally talk about it. No, I look forward to and when you announce it then we are whether you are at early stages and then or in your mid stages, let's do it another one and then we that. 'D be great, yeah. I'd love to do that When it when the when it's out there. That'd be wonderful. Let's let's have another let's have another go for sure and you can talk about more more about the megalodon. Any any other curiosities we don't know about it debunking these AI generated videos, Tik toks and all of that shit and so. So where to where to follow you? Any social media, your website as well? Yeah. So if you people want to look at my website to see what I'm up to and how they can contact me, particularly if they want to hire me for speaking opportunities, you can find look at www.doctorjackacooper.com. But if you want to follow me on social media, you can follow me at Cooper Paleo. So you can find me on Instagram. You can find me on Blue Sky, you, you can find me on Twitter, but I don't really use that anymore because it's basically a Nazi site now. So I would recommend Instagram is the best place you want to follow me, but you can also if you want to. My e-mail was on my website if you want to reach out about any opportunity, speaking opportunities. So that would be absolutely wonderful. I'm looking forward to hearing from people, Yeah. So I think this is a great wrap up and for the students and graduates out here, make sure to reach out to, to, to Jack Cooper. And if you're interested about sharks, you can just send him an e-mail or just reach out to his website. He has lots of services to offer and he's he he's a top one if you want to talk about sharks and the megalodon itself. OK, so Jack, thank you for your time. It was, it was a pleasure to to have you here. And we finally with you finally came up and it's great to to have you and let's do it another one for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure for me too, and for the students and graduates hearing this podcast. Thank you all for tuning in and it's been a pleasure.