Late-Night Talk: Angelo Robles. What Counts As Proof When Science Is Uncertain

Angelo Hobbles Welcome to PhD launch and we finally sit down to to have a chat after some time of. Yeah. Of of trying go, let's have a talk. It's been a while. Let's try and have a talk. I think they've been going around on this since last year. It's. Yeah, definitely, yeah. So you said already you were doing having an experiment research tomorrow. So tell me a bit more about that and. Yeah. So we're trying to attract DNA from zebra fish at the moment. So we're trying to prove that the gene is actually in the present in zebra fish. So the more we're just tracking preliminary experiments, this actually is confirmed before proceeding ahead with the further experiments. Yeah. As a person who is not knowledgeable on science and all those technical terms, could you just explain me like in a simple terms and wondering if if it is a a long term research experiment that you've been doing since the beginning of a PhD or in your final stages? I'm I'm currently on on my final stretch of my PhD now. So. So what we're doing right now is since December. It's not really a common knowledge, but in our field, zebra fish is considered like a modal Organism. Specifically, it shares a big chunk homologous DNA with humans as well. What we're trying to do right now is edit. Not necessarily edit, but modulate the plasmalogen levels within zebra fish via modulating the genes affecting that plasmalogen. For example a far one or pets. But yeah, so. It's got kind of a complicated process then. Yeah, it's a, It's a complicated process in a in a way, but yeah. In a way. So how? How is it? So far, one is the gene that modulates plasmaelogen by synthesis. So plasmaelogen is a type of lipid that is important in biological membranes specifically in any in all sorts. Oh, that what I'm saying now give me, give me the question again. Sorry. So the with the current research is the current experiment you're doing. It Yeah. If you had, is it a long term 1? Is it at the final set? Is that around the final stages? Oh, is it? Yeah, it's, it's the final stages. Yeah, yeah. And. What? What did you have so far around that? Any. Any. Prior knowledge or any research based evidence around it? I'm just trying shaping up the question. Around yeah, yeah. So at the moment, so my PSG has like two goals to. The first goal is to prove that they are plus mileage in the zebrafish because the literature says that there's confounding evidence that the plasmaleagents even exists. So you need to prove first that there are plasmologists in zebrafish. So we've, I've actually proven that there are plasmologists in zebrafish within the first few months of my PhD. And right now it's just characterizing the, the lipid landscape in zebrafish because it's not, it's not fully characterized yet. And that's where we're going through as well. And and the final stages we're trying to, we're trying to modulate these lipids and if it models or even recapitulates the disease models. Sounds like a a complicated process in gathering all the all the evidence and throughout those research experiments, including the one that you will have. Yeah, tomorrow. You know to something to maybe to find something even more complexed or will be eventually something that is easy going then. Yeah, hopefully it will be easy going by then, but yeah, just especially the final experiments now. So was what is what is your educational background? How and how did it? How did it lead towards your PhD? Because you said your PhD is in medicine, isn't it? Technically in not necessarily in medicine, but more on like clinical research. So my background is on medical genetics, genomics and then I pivoted into new science specifically in area in lipidomics. So it's the study of lipids. The study of lipids, yeah. Could you elaborate? A. Bit more, yeah. So study of lipids, for example, cholesterols type of lipid sound in your heart. A lot of people say cholesterol is bad for your health. No, it's quite good cholesterol. Yeah. Yeah, quite good. So it's cholesterol nowadays. And say. Like no, no, I'm eating. Ultra processed foods and all that. There's there's good cholesterol and there's bad cholesterol for you. So there are, there are type, there are species of lipids that are, you know, are good for your intercessor, bad for you. You know, sometimes less is more. Anything that exists is always a poison in your body and that's that's all. The same applies to lipids as well. OK. So the background that you have matches with what you're currently doing then. In a sense, yeah. So my background is purely on genetics and genomics. I don't have necessarily have any experience in in my current PhD since the my PhD is realized heavily, heavily on mass spectrometry. So it's purely chemistry. But yeah. So how did you manage then to be successful a successful applicant? And. Become accepted to. Yeah, so my, so my final project on my bachelor's degree involves Alzheimer's thesis risk teens. So that's that kind of opened my door towards neuroscience, neurodegenerative diseases since Alzheimer's and multiple Alzheimer's disease, multiple sclerosis. Well, on my master's degree, I've my project is involved with African turquoise Kelly fish. So with that and it's another door that opened me towards studying model organisms. And I kind of married the idea between my project, between my bachelor's degree and my master's degree and then towards my PhD, which is an entitled investigating the Cosmology and Lipid and Zebrafish Development. But yeah. So then for you in your in your view, it was an easy process then to because with all the background that you had and some of the some of the prior knowledge from your bachelor's in getting into a completely different PhD into a PhD in a completely different subject than for you. Was it something easy, easy going or is it or had some it's complications? It wasn't. It wasn't necessarily complicated. In a way, it was daunting at first, the idea of studying a completely, like different field. But once you've got the fundamentals correct and the transition should be relatively, I'd say doable in a way. Global Doable. Doable. Yeah, yeah. And this sounds so in all fairness, it had some its complications, but then also had its some its advantages. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And how would you manage to get some funding? Was it? Was this a funded? Project. Yes. Yeah, it's a project. It's scholarship. Yeah. Because I remember when we, when we were talking, we were talking about when you applied for a PhD, when you, when you used to work at Nando's. I'm still currently. Working, yeah. And I say we're talking about PHDPHD and I say OK fuck you need to apply for. What and say we're talking about this? And then we're saying about medicine or something related to or medicine related as you were saying. And OK, you managed to apply, but then you applied for it was a, it's a funded PhD. It was a funded position. Yeah, right. Yeah. But at the same time he was still working obviously on a on a part time basis as you said to me. Yeah, how? Would you manage then? How did you manage to leverage your full time PhD and your employability at a part time part time job at the time? So juggling between jobs in an academic setting, it's not as everyone thinks. It's easy as well. For me, it came to me naturally in a way because I was already working at Nando. So during my bachelor's in my first year in 2019 and in a while juggling Nando's, table tennis and studies as well, it came to me naturally. It wasn't easy at the beginning since it was you have to manage your time, you have to have discipline as well. So I leverage it in a way that I can balance things. So not necessarily I'm just going to do research all the time, but also have the time to or be flexible to do other stuff as well, extracurricular activities that can actually benefit you to become more productive in a way. OK. And so it wasn't easy as the first and then so we had to abdicate. Yeah. From your from your position at Nando's? Yeah, yeah. So I had to adapt. Yeah. Now I was like, OK, I've got I've got a scholarship money. And I was like, OK, there was no point working in Nando's at that time. But yeah. So and how then, Jim, are you able to manage now? So you're still managing the Table Tennis Society? I'm not, I'm not in a I'm, yeah, I'm not in a committee anymore. Last year was my final role as president and I'm still, the season's finished now, so I'm still a player. But yeah. Will you be able? To play at varsity this year. Yeah, I'm, I'm actually the captain of the varsity I was assigned to, so it's my third time playing now. But yeah, we haven't, yeah. So it's saying I'm going to play some table tennis and then all of a sudden comes up an issue on your PhD and you have to deal professionally while playing some table tennis. So would you do this in your lab work in in your research experiments? So I'm doing this using my own one hand, my not dominant hand to work on the research while practicing some practicing some some shots. Can do yeah because one of my friends Peter was was currently doing a PhD in machine learning in a way I think I remember one of his bachelor's project was something related to a table tennis shots in a way so it's it's definitely doable but. Yeah, so how did? How did that work? I can't remember the full details, but it's something related to the speed of the ball, something like that. Because it's table tennis is one of the fastest like sports in the world compared to like the hand eye coordination and in the split decision making as well. But yeah. No, I do feel that we've played before. I mean, we've had a few matches. Yeah, and. It's been a while because I used to play ping pong as well, but not not in in a federation state. Federation wise. I'm just it was like playing football with with the kid with school, school boys. And that was it for me in in that case. But I do feel me on playing table tennis. Well, maybe I'm still on time, but just given the time constraints since you'll need to to leverage many stuff at the moment. Yeah, so. Now I finished my PhD and then trying to find a secret job dedicated to PhD lounge work now and there's many stuff at the same time. So in your research, did you have any any negative moments that you felt that I don't want to for to fucking work in this thing anymore and I just leave it by the other day or is any other and leave it for tomorrow in terms in regards to a complex experiment that you had to dealt with? Yeah. So just to reiterate again, so my PhD focuses on brain lipids, so specifically a type of coplasmalogens, which are really important for brain function and are known to be reduced in conditions like Alzheimer's. So I think one of the biggest challenges was that the data didn't always behave the way we expected. For example, certain lipids we were trying to detect were either very low in abundance or masked by other signals. And at the times, it wasn't even clear if what we're seeing was real or just noise or contamination. So that uncertainty can be quite frustrating, especially when you're trying to prove something that's already debated in the field. I'm sure you've got some challenges, well, when you're debating in your field as well, you know, archaeology and history. So yeah, there were definitely moments where I start stared all the data and thinking, you know, this either means something really interesting or absolutely like nothing at all. Complete waste of my time. So yeah, what what what that taught me was to be much more rigorous and critical with my data. So instead of relying on single piece of evidence, I started combining multiple layers like fragmentation patterns or internal standards and development of trends or any terminal terminology that is relevant to your field to build a stronger case. So in the end, that actually made the findings more robust. So it shifted my mind to the from finding a signal or finding finding a signal that actually proves that there's that lipid in a way to really proving it's biologically meaningful. How long does it does it take to conduct research experiments? So for my area in lipidol mix when you've so in my first year, so it's just me just purely training the experiment lipid extraction on the samples. I was just a complete newbie. Don't know what, don't know what I'm doing that took me at least three days to run 1 lipid extraction to follow the protocol. Since I've got a hang of it, it should last at least like one day, depending on how many samples you're dealing with and. Then you and then reporting those to your devices. Yes, yeah. So, yes, so lipid extraction and then once you've got the lipids, we we inject them into the machine. So I'm using a high resolution mass spectrometry to track these lipids during development and in the adult brain. So yeah, the exciting part is that we're starting to see evidence not only that they are present, but did they change in very specific ways during key stages like brain development. Well, for me, in my if for me, this is absolutely new. I don't know about anything about lipids and doing some of these research experiments. So just like to deal with literature. The only great thing is you you have to deal with microscopes and other state-of-the-art technology that. Yeah, yeah. So microscopes, yes, say for example, if we're so my job as well is to collect grow zebra fish and collect zebra fish as well. And the first thing we need to do is so my the whole experiment depends on me getting enough zebra fish just to run more experiments. So what my experiment I would need to be having enough zebrafish to run the experiments. So currently I have 440 zebrafish. So the the experiments, the experiment's not that hard, but I think it's very time consuming. Say for example, if you're dealing like 5 to 10 zebrafish, oh, it's doable within now, but if you're dealing 100 within the hundreds, it could easily take one hour or one day as well. So I think last week I was collecting zebra fish. My final collection, it took me at least 4 hours just purely collection. So two hours. Wow. Yeah, just just purely by collection. So it depends. It depends really on the amount of or number of samples that you're dealing with. I can't. I can't imagine how would be a day of a PhD in in your fields and trying to make those those experiences that can be quite stressful and say like this, fuck I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, that's why I like, I think time management is really important as well because of planning, especially with zebrafish. It's so I'm studying the developmental time points in zebrafish. So from one hour post fertilization or 50% happy body all the way to the adult stages. So I have to collect certain time points. Say for example, if I set up the zebra fish on Tuesday night, I need to collect the eggs on Wednesday morning and then check in again on the late afternoon just to see has the eggs reached a viable stage that I can collect, right. Yeah. So. Could you tell us the time where you presented some of the results to your PhD advisors and then what happened afterwards? Was it a negative reception from the from your supervisor or advisor or was that gay? No, it was definitely, yeah, it was definitely OK. It was definitely very supportive and very constructive. Try my best to have results every time I report, even if it's like a small update, because it's very, very helpful to me in a way. And yeah, there was nothing negative about as well, because as you know, if post grads as well, a master's or a PhD, you'd always want to have a good communication with your supervisor. Yes, that's true. Yeah. But then that communication, how do you, do you practice? Do you practice it or you just like natural, natural. And then if there's something that fails. Would. What's what you learn from that and how does your supervisors give you advice on cake look on this way looking this way might be completely different from the advice I get from my supervisors that heal my both of them. They advise me to OK, you could research this specific volume, which is not here, but you can also order, order it online or check all the libraries. And they, they, they, they for me, in my case, they provide me a lot of they've, they've provided me a lot of great insights. So I wonder if in in this in medicine field or relate and related is the same or quite medical ish approach? Yes. So we have regular lab meetings as well. So say, for example, if I presented my own research or recent experiment, everyone can chip in, OK, so I can, I can say my piece, the other lab members can say their piece and my supervisor can say his piece as well. So everyone's chipping in on the feedback. So it's and that to me like it's an invaluable source as well. It also practice you as well on public speaking, sharing, expand, sharing your results to everyone as well. Have you tried to engage your research publicly? Yes, yeah, yeah, I've attended, I've attended a couple of conferences both internationally and domestically. So my first, my first conference was an international one. Actually it was in Spain. Oh, no, not in Spain, sorry. It was, it was in Italy. OK, Yeah. Whereabouts in Italy? I should, I should remember this. I should remember this. It was in Tuscany. It was in Tuscany. I don't know why the. Tuscany region. Yes, it was in Tuscany. Yes. I don't know why I wasn't remembering, but yeah, it was Tuscany. It was it was literally on the day of my birthday as well. OK, Yeah, it was a big, it was a big. Yeah, it was in Tuscany because at that time it was like a few months in, in my PhD, in my first year of my PhD and my supervisor is just encouraged me to apply. Yeah. And then any a long ball, I got accepted by it. So yeah, it was, it was something at first, but it to me it came naturally because if you know your research inside and out, then speaking about it should be, should be, I'd say not hard. I'd say you should don't. Yeah. I think also that that is a great, that is a great insight that you provide because, because knowing your research inside out is a big advantage. I also say from my experience, because I, I had a background in public speaking during my bachelor's and I used those transfer those skills into, into my PhD and the, my first conference my, my supervisor did that advice. It was me who took The Who took the initiative. And my first conference was online and it was in, in Malta and yeah, in, in some kind of a, like a symposium, so to speak. But it was like in a, in a conference university in a conference, academic conference style. Sorry. Yeah. And it was, it was interesting to know how people listen to you, how deep you are in your research and telling that to your to a non specialist audience. And yeah, I think I think it was great. Great. There's a lot of great experiences and you can bring a lot of insightful knowledge from other people you can apply into your research. Did you, Yeah. Did you have that? Or in terms of what? Sorry when? You presented your research at in Italy and other ones as well. Whilst you were hearing other ones, did you did you take something insightful from from the other speakers? Yeah, definitely. They were giving constructive feedback on my data. So in the conferences it's all about just listening to what they're trying to say in a way both academically and non academically. It's all about connections, collaborations, networking as well. Yeah, I'd say in terms of So what, what's helpful for me is that I always say to myself like I know nothing about everything. So it's you just absorb information from everyone. Even though you think it's not helpful, it's still going to help you in a way, I'd say. And then again. It and it will be useful for a later stage when when working independently so to. Speak, yeah. Working in a in a in a research lab as well. How is it your and how is it your relationship with with the other PhDs that you work alongside them within a research? Lab yeah, they're, they're OK. That could be good. So we don't know. We don't usually talk that much because we're, we're very busy and he's always doing with his own stuff and I am dealing with my own stuff. So we, we occasionally talk if there's some, some problem needs to be addressed or just a catch up really. But yeah. It's just say, hey, I'm doing this research and I can't talk to you right now, and then I'm going. Yeah, that's basically it. That's basically it. So back, back to the conferences. Do you have any upcoming one? Or so I'm done for now because I'm in my first year and 2nd year I've I've attended a couple of conferences. So now I'm at my sensitive stage of my PhD. So, so far, nothing planned yet for conferences. Now, which one did you? I know this sounds like risky, but which one did you enjoy the most of all the conferences that you've spoke at? Oh, I think it, it was definitely the international one because I attended the Gordon Research Conferences, so it was a bit in the forefront in my field. So I was very lucky that I've been able to attend that as well. You know, researchers all around the world, you know, people that wrote my textbooks actually attended there. And it's just a grateful opportunity to be able to attend such a, you know, prestigious conference such as that. And yeah, I'd say easily the Golden Conference in, in Tuscany, isn't it? Well. Then you had the chance to taste some of the wines of the region then. Yeah, definitely, because they're. Really good. Is it really good? Did you also have the opportunity to go to Florence? During the time, no, I was just in Tuscany and Pisa because. Florence is in the Tuscany region. Yeah, I was. Asking you. Yeah. So I've, I've visited Florence before, but as a holiday. But during the conference, I think we just visited Pisa and that's it really this. 1 Then tell me this, if you, if you could, we'll go back to your first year, what would you have done differently? I think I would focus much earlier on the bigger picture instead of getting lost in small technical details. So I think in the beginning I spent a lot of time trying to perfect the methods without fully thinking about how everything connects to the main research question, right. Yeah, I think second as well. I'd also start data analysis earlier, even with imperfect data, because that's where you're really beginning to understand your project. Even though, you know, the data is a bit, you know, not clean or anything, it's still telling you a lot on that data. So it's a, it's about navigating. It's about navigating when things don't go as planned. So right. No, that's, that's, that's insightful as, as, as we said previously, learning from learning from what you've done, learning from the mistakes and also navigating throughout those you know to leverage a situation to reach to reach a positive outcome then. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. The the, the opportunity wouldn't present itself if you weren't capable. So yeah. So do you have any upcoming things just or just submitting completely the PhD and then preparing yourself for the vivo or you don't or how I wonder how would a vivo volque in the medical in the medical field would look like? Do you have any? Knowledge of it or have. You, I don't have any, I don't have any knowledge about it, but I do heard a bit about it. So I think they're going to assign a chair outside your school. Yes. And I think a secondary. One, do you have? From to share I mean, I know a few stories where they're they successfully become a doctor, but in detail now, no. I think, I think this is the best thing and doing something that you like and somewhat many of the students, I don't know, I think give the facts to the majority of us as candidates. And I want to have a PhD so that everyone can call me a doctor or having the PhD title right next to your to your surname. I wonder if that would be your mindset or just I want just to gather some knowledge obviously and then apply that later. To me, it's having, you know, the PhD in your name. I think it's just a bonus for me. Like I wouldn't, obviously it's nice, but at the same time I just, I just, I just hope I get a job after this. But yeah. Have you done something in between your PHDI know you did. You were the the president of the Table Tennis Society. Before, yeah. Have you done some teaching and note note taking on any? Sort of Oh no. So during my bachelor's in masters I did like note taking and I'm I'm still currently A at senior teaching assistant. So assisting at practical stuff like that. But something professionally formal, no, I think I wouldn't have that time to juggle like a professional job whilst doing experiments. No way, you just. You have to prepare yourself for what's coming afterwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I yeah, I think it's just a sensitive time. So so I even said to my family as well, like, oh, please don't invite me to any holidays at the moment because I just need the time. Yeah, so. How how how is how your parents understand your? Yeah, they understand. Yeah. Because it's, it's just, it's such a precarious situation as well. Like, you know, they wouldn't want them. They wouldn't want to affect my studies as well. So I mean, I just gave them a heads up in advance. So I was like, yeah, yeah, they're completely fine with it. Then for not I'd say this year, yes, but at these final hurdles of your PHDI don't. I'd say I can't go to Manchester is. It Oh, I wouldn't necessarily. I think maybe, yeah, I still go to Manchester, but nothing too major I'd say, like going abroad. Yeah. So I I think just like flying, flying or good. No, not flying. So it's just traveling locally first, Yeah. And then so for the future, would you consider going, We've been talking lots of this, but would you consider getting into a postdoc or you want to go just jump straight into an industry? Yeah, I'm considering, I'm considering to do at least becoming a postdoc or anything disintegrated to laboratories and hopefully if I've got the luxury to to be able to pivot into industry. So because I'm really enjoying the the research aspect of actually and yeah. Do you still maintain your online presence then to share your research? I'm not necessarily like posting that much related to my research. I think it's I think it's because of like data sensitive, something I love. But and sometimes now I just post our updates and Instagram story and that's it really. Like nothing too major. Related to table tennis loads. Of table tennis, yeah, but not necessarily related to the PhD. You know, so I've seen like some so many people that they post lots of stuff on the pH about their PhDs and their with such, such elaboration. I'd say for on LinkedIn, many people who have their own PhDs, they have their own businesses and they elaborate loads and loads of texts. Texts. Yeah, like just to get, I don't know if it is a corporate validation because it feels like Facebook for for corporates. Have you? Yeah, have. You noticed that? Before, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it as long as it's like appropriate, I'd say, say, for example, if you have a job posting and stuff like that, I wouldn't post it on Instagram or anything. Like LinkedIn is definitely like an appropriate place for it, yeah. Yeah. Have you been surfing? Just just for curiosity? Have. You been yeah, yeah, browsing in terms of in your field. In the field. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, like on my feed, there's always some always stuff about neuroscience, the epidemics, whatever. I find something helpful not only to me, but to others as well. I just immediately repost it as well. Do you have any other stories would you like to share about your your research? Not really, they're all boring. I mean, I'm. Also boring not. Mine in a way, No, no, nothing really that comes into mind. That's why I said it's important to have something outside like table PhD from you, like for example table tennis. So so that. That part is more easier to manage then was the beginning. As you said, it was a bit, was it a bit hard, wasn't it? In the beginning it was a bit hard in a way because I was just, I don't know exactly how much work I should be needing to put, especially on the training. But I realized that, yeah, you need to do a lot of work because, you know, you got, you know nothing about the field, stuff like that. So I raise awareness to my supervisor that hey folks, at the time I was very active on my table tennis games. So at least I'd say that every because you know, the box games were occurring on Wednesday. So there were times that I'm not going to be available on Wednesday. So you know, as long as you progress and you know my supervisor been quite supportive of that balance as long as you're progressing and delivery results, they understand that having that outlet makes you more productive in the long run. No, I think that's, I think that's the main, the main focus of the one of the main focuses of the of the PhD is to just keep, keep yourself on track. They. Also want because supervisors also monitor that and they are being evaluated by their own by the by the the head office of of the each each university. Yes, yeah, definitely. Angela, I think we can wrap up unless you have something to to say anything else? About no, that that's, that's all OK for me. That's all OK for me. I mean, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Go on. One. No, that's OK. What were you saying? I was, I was remembering this and just, I was about to forget. Just do you still remember that episode that, that we, that we had back when we was doing COVID and we're talking about about PhD, how I was about to going to start in July 20. Yeah, we're talking about that. And we were taking the yerba mate. Yes. You still remember that? I still remember that. Yeah, that. That fucking dope head over there is like, Oh my God, can I have? Some taste of this. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. It's near McDonald's. Yeah. Stay. In. McDonald's Yeah, I. Think there's like nowadays, nobody seemed to really care about that about sipping yerba mate and seeing in a in a sense of no person, no drug addict or weed addict common approach. So I had this situation with I had a situation where they didn't say it anything and then you cross them. They were smoking weed and I was sipping my mate crossing like nothing was it as well as the the police. I I was sipping my mate once on the way home and I passed by two police officers. Yeah. And I was and I looked behind them and say I thought myself, I think they didn't get, they didn't. They didn't detain me. No, because I'm, you know, because the air base a bit it's it's looking, Yeah, thinking. Yeah, it feels like, but at the same time they would be confused with that and but I think at the same time they have been informed about those kind of kind of not kind of alternative teas, so to speak. Yeah. Because the Turkish shop where I buy my groceries, they sell the arbamate as well. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they got briefed on what the arbamate looks like because it. Yeah, probably, sure. So unfortunately I can't take. I can't zip it inside of a plane unless I can bring I can bring it in. With myself, yeah, yeah, I'd understand that. Would you? Would you buy some eventually? And then I find it too strong for me. I just find it too strong, stronger than coffee. So I probably just stick to coffee. Yeah, yeah. It's like maybe like, let me blend a bit of both and say no. You. You'll be tweaked like a like a guy who's just sipped Cuban coffee. Yeah, probably, probably be tweaking. So, Angelo, thank you for for your time. Could you share any advice for those who are thinking in undertaking a PhD or are about to start their PhDs? Yeah. So I think always remember that it's a marathon in our race. Yeah. So be prepared for uncertainty. It's probably the biggest thing because a PhD isn't about following a clear path. It's always about. Navigating when things don't go as planned. And also don't isolate yourself, you know, talk to people, lab mates, collaborators, certain conferences, go outside your comfort zone. And finally, like focus on progress and not perfection. Some, I think small consistent steps matter more than waiting for everything to be perfect. If you're waiting for everything to be perfect perfect, then you'll be waiting for the rest of your life. So yeah. And I think that's a well composed message to deliver to those who are who want to study for a PhD and those who are about to start. And hopefully. The P the PhD keeps evolving. Now many people are jump from their bachelor's and go straight into a PhD. And I think something, something around the PhD degree will come up in the future. I don't know what it says. Maybe there will be the degree of the future, We don't know. I've asked this question several times to many people and they say if they feel uncertain things or they say I hope not, but that's how it is. So where students and graduates can follow you then also. On yeah, so I have an Instagram, you know Jello under score Rotha Drew and I have a LinkedIn as well so just type in my name and it should pop up so. And I'll, I'll definitely do it. And I mean for the students in graduates hearing it, hearing this, this topic, if you want to do something around medical field or medicine related, shout out to Angelo Hobbles and he'll be happy. He'll be glad to help you out. And As for us, it's a wrap up. Angelo, thank you so much again. And let's go. Let's catch up soon. Yeah, it's OK. Because I'm free basically like. PhD and just. Doing all the stuff and for those who are tuning in, thank you all for thank you all to you and it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.