Late-Night Talk: Jade Goodwin, Miriam Beyers, PhD and Nathan John. Two Entrepreneurs and a Careers Advisor having a Round Table

Medium bears Nathan, John and Jay Goodwin. So welcome to PhD Lounge and thank you for being my first 3 guests of the year. So I would like to say Happy New Year first and foremost, and it's a completely different version to so to speak, where we're going to have one guest with two PhDs and to all the guests with completely different backgrounds who want to share a their own story of how you guys reach there. So welcome. I'm glad you guys will be here. So we would like to start with medium, ladies first with with medium and would you like to share with us? I already introduced you with two PhDs, but would you like to share? And then we go with Jayden. And last but not least, Nathan. OK. Yeah, thank you very much for for having me and for having us. And Happy New Year to you too, and everyone else. Thank you. Yeah, as you said, my name is Miriam. And yeah, two PhDs sounds maybe more impressive than it really is. But yeah, I got my PhD degrees from University of Copenhagen in Denmark and hence University in Belgium. So it was a double degree program in an EU project. So there was close collaboration between different institutions across Europe and I was in the middle of that. And I was also in the middle of COVID when I was a few months in. So I got it all on my on my plate, having to navigate the university criteria from two sides. I had three supervisors. I was living in a new country. I had a long distance relationship from one day to the other. So I was like kind of trying to navigate it all. And yeah, and that became a bit much. And because it became a bit much, I realized that I wanted to change the way I, I work, the way that I look at my PhD, my work, and also my private life. Because they didn't really, the proportions didn't seem right, and the energy that I spent on each of them didn't really feel right and aligned. So I started exploring, Yeah, time management and productivity, human psychology when it comes to work, when it comes to our mindset of what we are supposed to do or what we think we are supposed to do. And yeah. And that led me ultimately to. Yeah, found a company around that. So now I'm helping PhDs who also feel like the want to juggle everything more easily, more joyfully to to get there. What was the name of the company? One time, but one not as one, but in terms of winning. The one time. Yeah. Thank you. No. Worries. Go on, Jade. So yeah, so good morning as well and happy New Year. I will say this is the first time I've done a podcast or anything like this. It's quite exciting. I like it. So I obviously work at Swansea University. I'm actually from Swansea. I grew up here, so quite typically Welsh, didn't, didn't stray too far. I studied a degree in French at Swansea University, finished that about 20 years ago, so a long time now I know and I worked in a few other places when I graduated. But ultimately, I think a year after graduation came back, came to work at Swans University for the first time and sort of worked in a few different teams. I, I did some HR, some administrative roles attempt in a few areas, but ultimately at that time ended up on employability program called Go Wales. That sort of links to what I do now. And I did that for five or six years and I absolutely loved it. Very much a work experience programme, loved sort of seeing students and helping them. And what I do now is very much an evolution of that. And then the funding for that actually ended in 2014. And I thought, what do I do now? I don't know where I fit. And at that time I decided to do an Access to nursing course and that was a lot of work, but very different to anything I'd done. And I had points. So I just thought, what am I doing? Is this the right thing? But I loved it as well. And then I actually came back to Swansea University as a student again and started an adult nursing degree. I only got about halfway through that and because of an injury, I had to leave the course. And then another point in the future, I came back to working at the university. So I've, I've been here forever. I literally feel like part of the furniture now. I am either working here or studying here. But I would say if I had to sum it up, I am the definition of a squiggly career. You know, I've done HR, I've done careers, a little bit of marketing, nursing, healthcare, but I ultimately I feel I love what I do now. So I feel quite fortunate to land back in employability and I think that squiggly career I've had where I've sort of dipped a toe in lots of areas has been really helpful. So where I'm at now, I'm now working on a team called Career Boost, somewhat similar to Go Wales, but it's evolved in such a way that there's a lot of support now through Welsh Government funding for students that might be struggling with career confidence or might have barriers to opportunities and they need help finding opportunities and sort of building their social capital. I absolutely love what I do now. I find it so rewarding and I love where I'm at. And I think for me, the fact that I've done lots of different things in other lives really, really helps. And yes, there's a lot of time spent at the university, either working or studying, but it feels like I'm where I'm supposed to be and I really enjoy it. Yeah, Nathan. Nice. It's already apparent that the role that the universities have played in all of our lives and that's there's interest in there as well with with everybody. Yeah, Happy New year, everyone in there right in there with that which start really. I'm the current CEO of RE Wise and founder. I founded the company way back now in 2008 and I guess again, you know, that's a direct correlation there between my time in university. So similar to Jade and Louis as well. I studied in Swansea and I never thought I'd end up going to university when I was in school. So I was told that I wouldn't get, you know, good grades at GCSE, etcetera. And I was never even, you know, taught what university was, I guess. I mean, I always thought it was just Oxford and Cambridge and people racing boats. I didn't think it was for people like me at that time, but I ended up finding out about it. And then of all things, that a girlfriend at the time was studying and going to Swansea. And I was just a bit like, well, what's that? And then obviously did a bit of research. I can remember applying I in my A levels, I only had a C and AD, which was kind of what I got throughout my kind of school career. So I didn't have much choice when it came to subjects. So I had history or economics and of all my teachers, my economics teacher was a really kind of inspirational guy and you know, was he would come up with these, you know, ideas then for businesses and they'd always be quite encouraging. So I picked economics and I ended up being approved study in Swansea for an applied economics degree, which I didn't realize at the time, but also contained a lot of statistics and maths equations. It was kind of life changing I guess without my journey, without like coming to Swansea, meeting the people I met who was still, you know, lifelong friends to this day and student, including Steve who sat oppositely there. You know, I think that really kind of, it's amazing how university and then experiences outside of the classroom can make you as an individual. And for me, it gave me the self belief and determination to go on and start the businesses I have. It's also interesting when I was at Swansea, I, it's kind of a mansion that's developed, you know, between finding opportunities through kind of hard work and then having the confidence to kind of take advantage of them. And one of the first ones, I guess was starting an events business and becoming a DJ all through again, a close friendship circle and, and finding that opportunity. And for me, it goes back then to being in school and the music that I loved at that time became the music, music that I ended up DJ ING. And I just built on confidence that basically led to me being diagnosed as being dyslexic in my third year. And I would, this is the bit that maybe people shouldn't kind of copy if you like. But I go to university to promote our events rather than lectures, which isn't great. But it led to me meeting my tutor who said, look, I think he's dyslexic. And I got that test, you know, 3-4 weeks before my final exams. It made sense, you know, when I was diagnosed. And then I got extra support for them exams. So I ended up getting the best grades I got in my life. I ended up getting 7080%. And that just kind of flipped the switch. You know, where I thought, OK, well, obviously I think in a different way, in a different way, etcetera. I'm not stupid, but I can go on and do what I want to do. And that basically led to me going back to the idea for this business that I had when I was in school that maybe didn't have the confidence at the time to talk about. And then, yeah, you know, roll on however many years, we are too many to count 15, that means the business is still still going today. So yeah, that's going to me. And that's a little bit about my time at university as well. So I guess everything is interconnected and we have lots of different backgrounds. But going back, it seems to what we, we gather across across our life experience and at the beginning are following university or still during, during our studies, then those experiences, we gather them and then we put into something that we we really enjoying. It was never expecting to hear anyone coming from who has a a French linguistics background and then using using those skills to work at the at the the current job position, as Jade said. And then medium struggling with time and using that time into a business venture in helping others to improve their own time. And as you said as well, your skills in DJing and using your disability to help businesses and also individuals to improve themselves to give them confidence to work on themselves and potentially on a business on a business side effect to found their own found their own business. And I think that's the best of that's the best of everything with if putting our hard work, say, to say the least, in order to achieve that success, right. So I'd like to ask how to to medium and Nathan and answer goes to to Jade. How how your careers, how your business ventures and Jade with your career, how it was in the beginning? Was it too complicated? Was there any any obstacles that you overcame and how you overcame them? I mean, yeah, Miriam, would you like to go first or I can? You go first. Please, I I can still remember it, you know, like it was yesterday basically starting. And obviously that one of the biggest things isn't it is we all need like an idea. Naturally you need to have obviously the passion for that idea, but sadly we need money as well to start it, which is obviously like a real barrier for everybody, but obviously more so for some and others. And I can remember, you know, just graduating having like no money at all, like a minus figure obviously. And at the time there again, I think it goes back to having to kind of do that work, put the hard work in to find the opportunities. And the same goes for the funding, doesn't it? And I found out about a scholarship, OK, in the university and Jayden might still exist. The CAF scholarship it was called, I don't know, probably, yeah, probably changed his name, but but basically it was about £2000 to help someone kind of live whilst they develop their idea. So I can remember doing this research, finding that going and applying for it, but then getting turned down. But at that time I was like, no, you know, I'm not taking no for an answer. And I'm good friends now with the lady that kind of was helping the application. I was just like, no, you know, no, we can't. We need this to kind of start. So we ended up like appealing it, you know, like 3 times and eventually winning it. And I still joke it went on to do like, we've run a lot of work with the university with different departments on like retention rates and student student confidence and all these other things. But I always joke with this lady, you know, like if it wasn't for that and me just kind of not taking over an answer, we wouldn't be doing what we've done. So I think like that's, yeah, that's the kind of big obstacle. Obviously, again, you know, confidence, in my opinion, you get it from experience. Don't you know, if you can look back in your mind and think, Oh, well, look, I've done, you know, when it's public speaking, pitching, whatever, I've done it before, I've got this positive association. I focus on that. I can get there. But before you obviously have that experience and it's quite nerve wracking, I would say. And I think a lot of people maybe don't go on to pursue what they want to do because of that kind of voice, if you like, saying that they can't do it. So I think it's almost like a change in your perception to being like, oh, you know what? I always look at it like, what's the worst thing that can happen? It got to a point in this, well, OK, well, what's the worst thing that can happen? And I think to have that kind of mindset and to draw on positive experiences like, you know, getting that fund in the end, you think, well, actually, if I push it, if I keep going, you know, there will be light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. So I would say that really it can be tough. It's a lonely place as well. Obviously, at the start when you're doing everything and you know, sometimes everyone obviously gets a negative thought as well thinking, oh, you know, is this meant to be? But again, I'm, I'm a believer and I think it's shaped from that start of that journey. If you've got the mindset and you've got the hardware, if you will make them opportunities, you know, and something will happen on the other side, I guess if it's not meant to be, it's not as well. You can't, it's certain things you can't control as well, you know. So I think if you focus on what you can control, that's the kind of one of the keys for me at the start really I. Was going to say that's great. I think Nathan hit the nail on the head. That perception accounts for so much. I say this to students all the time. You don't know what you don't know. So you can have quite a linear way of thinking about your career or your life even. Or you can have quite a straightforward, you can have a plan and that can be totally blown out the water. And sometimes you go along with that plan, but you don't know the end from the beginning. You can only figure it out as you go along. And it's being OK with figuring it out as you go along. And if you are OK with that sort of career journey and, and making moves as well and dealing with failure, like Nathan said, applying 3 times, it almost reminded me of The X Factor. You know, the people that keep coming back and they get told no, but then ten years on the line, they've got an amazing career because they didn't take no for an answer. You know, resilience is such a skill and a tool that employers looking for and that the way the world is now that we need to be building that resilience. For me and my early career, I'm quite embarrassed to admit, but my barrier was my naivety. And I, I'm in, I use it now to my advantage with helping students and when I see them not know what they want to do because I was that person that I finished a French degree and I quit my job in Poundland and I would think I was a couple of 1000 lbs overdrawn. And I thought, where's my graduate career? I automatically thought I would qualify. Bear in mind, this was 20 years ago, you know, you didn't have, you know, work experience was very traditional and things like that. We hadn't had COVID yet. There was no virtual element to it. You know, you went out and sometimes you, you filled in application forms of papers, you know, or you would take your CV in person with you. And I had the naivety to quit my part time job on minimum wage and think, well, I'm bound, you know, I've got a degree, I'm bound to find something in the next couple of months. And then reality slaps you across the face and you think I've got some figuring out to do here. And it's, I work with students now to help them be as informed as possible. What I will say is Fast forward 20 years, the resources available to them, there's so much available, but you don't know what you don't know. So that's why speaking to somebody, finding some support. So I felt for you, Nathan, when you said was it the last exam or the last but one exam? You had your diagnosis now I would. Yeah. That's it. And now I would hope that somebody would perhaps say something to to Nathan or that student a bit earlier. There's so many, you know, there's a test available and there's support available. My team were specifically designed in career boost with increased employability to support students with certain characteristics, dyslexia being one of. Them. So there's so much more available. So I feel like maybe we we went through the trenches, but it's led to what we've got now. But if I'm honest, yeah, I always go back to you don't know what you don't know. So it's about not boxing yourself into this linear way of thinking. It's about finding out what's possible and I'm trying again. If something doesn't work first time around, that's absolutely fine as well and I'll stop there because I could talk all day long. But yeah, it's I agree with everything Nathan said. And yeah, for me, it also wasn't like an easy path. I think the first thing was realizing that I've been studying environmental science for over 10 years, and then I decided to like and not to go for the career that I thought I wanted to have for so many years. So that was kind of an existential crisis. And then also, I mean, I hadn't started a business before. I mean, who has, right? This is the first time. So everything felt like a struggle, almost everything. But the meeting was so big that I had this like, yeah, we can call it resilience. We can call it stubbornness. That I would just also not accept it to not work. It was just not an option. So if I got to know, OK, then I either try again or I try somewhere else. So yeah, that helps. But also keeping like a sane balance kind of thing. And to like, OK, you can do this, but you don't need to burn yourself out either. So yeah. I think it is something that we all go through and when we start, we go to university, we start at the beginning is like, it's like taking the first steps as a as a toddler and then say, OK, this is university. I'm going to party all the time and thinking about doing the studies. And then we, there's a phase where I think most of us go through and say, I don't know what to do. And I also say for my personal experience and I was during a a small internship at an archaeological station to in which I'm still friends with, with the, the people who work there and they are really helpful. And they encourage me to go abroad and say, I don't know what to do. And then they say try to find something. Well, I would like to be a lecturer, but then fast forwarding for almost, I've been in like university for almost 11 years and 1/2 from my undergraduate to my, well, my PhD, which I'll finish in officially in eight weeks. And thank you. And, and then it just my, the shift completely. I had a completely and 180°. I said now I'd like to do some project management in arts, culture and heritage, but obviously these are some murky waters said to say at least to explore there some. There will be some challenges and and sentences. And So what Jade has shared with us that it is really important and probably the students may know what to do. And with this boom of information that we, we have nowadays, it is still some, there is still some uncertainty and, and students feel, still feel a bit lost in what they actually want to do, but don't know yet how to take their first steps. And so having someone who, who is more experienced, who has gone through that and was willing to share just like the four of us around here. Well, I'm still looking for a job, but it is, I think that's the best part of it is helping each other out in a world where individuality is still a overvalued and well, nothing much to do. And one of the things that for businesses and those who are looking for jobs, but specifically for businesses, I do, I do recall Nathan, when we had our Christmas party, we were having a conversation and then Robin said it's easier to set up a business than finding a job. Would you agree on that? And I also asked to. Medium and I have your set your opinion as well. I would probably, I mean, everyone kind of walks in their own shoes, I guess. So I guess it depends on the individual, but I would say it's probably depends what job for a start. It's back to you, I guess what everyone has said on the call, you know, having that kind of defined path in their mining career. OK. I'm going to study this subject and then go and work in this field. Obviously it can be more competitive in certain fields and it can depend on your location etcetera. In fact that you can't control to get the job. I'd say it's probably different would be like a better description. You know different stresses with wanting to enter a career, different stresses with starting a business. And I think when you get to different stages of the business as well, you know that when you're in that startup phase, obviously it's always exciting. It should always be exciting anyway. That's why you kind of do it. But it's different stresses in terms of like getting capital and exploring kind of your market, making a customer base, so on. As time grows, obviously then you become more responsible for other people as well, you know, and it becomes about obviously it's not just yourself, it's a a work family, if you like, and keeping people in that job and when people have got maybe their own mortgage bills, etcetera to pay. So it becomes more of a stress there. But at the same time, I mean, I guess I'm in AI mean I think like related back to my own kind of story, if you like. It's been a long time now since I've worked for anyone. You know, when I was at university in my second year, I started doing the DJ and the promotion etcetera, which was like a little business if you like, so that I would, you know, I was 18 then. So I haven't actually had a job, if you like to apply and focus it that way since then, which was you know, a few years ago. So it's hard if I had to kind of, I couldn't imagine working for anyone else now, you know, which might, I think that's just me and my own kind of being a control freak really may be at heart, you know, but I can't imagine doing that now. So for me, I don't know, it's a difficult one. I think again, back to the original answer, I guess both have got their stresses, but I do think maybe the young people now, even though the support is there, it can be harder maybe to move into that career as well. You know, which is like there's all kinds of reasons maybe in terms of the amount of people may be studying certain subjects, you know, the supply that stripping and sorry, the demand that stripping the supply for the jobs in certain cases. And I also think maybe the fact that we talked about some of the positives definitely do with COVID, you know, in terms of being able to work online, etcetera. But obviously that's increasing the scope of people that can apply for certain jobs when they don't live in a community as well. So I think maybe that's making it more difficult for someone to move into that job. And it's almost like globalization, isn't it, of a job market where you can be based anywhere and obviously work remotely. So I think all of them factors do make it, yeah, quite difficult for a young person now to enter that career that they want to. So I would say I'm going to sit on the fence and say again, it depends on the individual in terms of the specific answer there And that that that's what I remember at the Christmas party as well. Can I add you know? Because it was curious what Robin said. And I was like, no, this, this is going to be a question to ask to Nathan and to meet him. Because I had already thought about the idea of, of asking this. Because this this is a great question to have a have their own have the go have their own goal. Sorry to to share their own perspective over that. And they say, oh, let's, let's open the business. Let's do this. And then, OK, we need to you need to find your own, your own solid foundation of what you actually want to do for a bit in your business, what ideas you could break down and writing making into an outline. And then we're working on those every single time. Yeah, I think for me it also depends on how one defines easy because I got cold feet before and then I applied for jobs because I was like, OK, I'm not like I can't do this financially. I need a job. And I got a job so fast in the environmental sector. Like I think I wrote three applications, yes, because there's the demand is there for engineering, environmental sciences and stuff. So finding something technically was easy, but finding something like meaningful and so it is what it's not that it wasn't meaningful. Like they had a good cause and sense and everything, but not for me. And finding something that is really aligned from my perspective, I think it's easier to start a business if that is the definition. It's easy. So yeah, as you say, it really depends on the individual and what they want. They're easy to be. Is it easy in terms of just getting something? Is it easy in terms of the money that one earns? Is it easy in terms of the fulfillment that's behind it? What is the easy that someone's looking for or the heart I think on the on the other side. That kind of makes sense, doesn't it? Because like, like you say, it's like with the business, you can create what you want from a job as well in terms of like the personal fulfillment and, you know, the real kind of specifics of the role, which I guess you can see it would be hard to maybe find the perfect match. But yeah, it's still hard to create it as well, isn't it? You know, different challenges. Nothing's easy, basically, but it's all worth it. Yeah, yeah. I've probably got the opposite experience to Nathan. So where I've always worked, always applied for jobs, not minded the recruitment process too much. Yes, I've had my disappointments and I've had interviews I've done really well at and then I've not got the job and ones that I've had a wobble and then I've actually got the job. I want to kind of want to join you on the fence. So because I think they are so different, Nathan's absolutely right. It is down to the individual and how you're wired and whether or not you have a really good business idea to begin with. So I've always looked up to people who can create a business and they've done that, but I've never had that solid idea to run with. So as much as I might like the idea of owning a business, if you don't have some kind of passion or spark of an idea or something or that somebody else needs, then you've you've got nothing to build with and you might have the tools, but not the bricks kind of thing. That's hearing Nathan say that. I know I think we're a similar age and studied at similar time, but fact that he hasn't worked friendly since he's 18, to me that's terrifying. But I'm a little bit envious as well because I think what you've built now is more solid than working for somebody else and more sustainable and more has more security. Whereas when you were starting your own business, the things you lack are that sustainability and that security, whereas those are the things you look for when you apply for a job and go through traditional recruitment. So it is, yeah. It's like comparing eggs and oranges or eggs and apples, whatever they call, I don't know the phrase, but it is like that. It's the only thing ways in which they're symbolized. It's you either do one with your time or you do the other with your time. But they're actually completely different. I suppose what I want to add in is, again, it's stripping back that linear thinking and you know, people can start a business at almost any age and any stage of their life and not think, oh, I haven't done it from the beginning when I'm 18. I can still do it now. There's so many different programs out there. You know, I'm always getting emails from different councils about business support groups or funded training courses or, you know, business startup qualifications. I'm for students in the university. Now there's a big drive with enterprise. I think 20 years ago for students come to an appointment and said I want to start a business. We go hang on now maybe, you know, go work for somebody else for a couple of days. Let's get some experience. You're only young, that kind of thing. Whereas now it's, you know, oh, you've got to go to a business. Yeah, fab. We've got a team that can give you a few 1000 lbs. You know, there's somebody that can give you some business training and you can pitch to somebody, create a pitch and understand and what it means to build a business. But still I to me, building a business is so much more difficult. But that's my again, it's back to that perception, isn't it? And how you are wired and, and what you've kind of materials you've got to work with. But yeah, they are so different and, and you can do both, you know, you can if you want to build a business, but you don't have, you need to start with a good income. There's nothing wrong with starting, going through, working for somebody else, starting in a role and then a business being sort of that's what they call it, a side quest. And then over time tip in your focus more towards that. If it's successful, that makes for a busy life. But if somebody really, really wants that for themselves in the future, you can do both. But hats off to anybody that runs a business because I clock off at the end of the day. And I mean, I do think about work. I hope I try not to, but I suppose, Nathan, I don't. If you agree, when you're a business owner, you think about it all the time. A lot is, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's a few things going to kind of shut the voice off a lot of the time, whether it's good or bad, and a few things there as well. It's funny, Jake. And you say they like, say, you know, it must be kind of scary running the business and everything. But I somehow look at it the opposite way as well, because even though the business is really great and again, it's been however long, it's been 16 years and it's not ugly. It is in the best position it's ever been. The fear is still there. They can end tomorrow, you know, and it won't, but it's always going to be there. Maybe that's a good thing in a way. It kind of keeps, you know, keeps you on your toes, so to speak. But that fear I think is always there. But I guess I don't know, maybe it'd be the same obviously working for someone as well, wouldn't it? Because you don't know the situation of that company, again, you know, maybe in control of that to an extent as well, you know, the decision, the market, etcetera. So I think, I don't know, it's a funny one. I think sometimes, I don't know, would have been great to have done this. You know, we've done this career and like maybe not have these worries, but I don't know. I think it all, yeah, it all comes back, I guess, you know, I guess what ultimately you want from life in a way, doesn't it as well, You know, for me, I've always liked that flexibility. And as much as I can be lying in bed last night thinking about the spreadsheets, etcetera are going to do today and this and that and hypothetical situations on numerous areas. Time, I know if I want to leave in this again is hypothetical, but if I wanted to go surfing at 3:00 today, I could go, you know, and the only thing stopping me would be myself, which I, again, it's something that you do have to do to be disciplined to get to the point that you want to get in business too, you know. So I don't know, it's always like, I think that like we've all said, isn't it, You know, there's been pros and cons on both sides really. And ultimately it comes down to what, what seats the individual. And I think the last point, Jade, is like you mentioned, you know, obviously it's never too late to start a business. I think I saw a start the other day that more people, not that it's about money, you know, but more people become millionaires in their 40s, fifties from starting a business and people in their 20s, you know. So I think it's never, yeah, it's never too late for people to take that idea that they've got a passion for. And my view, again, was always, OK, well, I'll try. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. You know, and I'd always said the same kind of line in public. Speaking of years, I'd rather have tried something and failed then worry about bits of paper, you know, with the, I'd say the Queen's head, but the King's head, whoever's head on it, you know, it doesn't matter. It's just bits of paper at the end of the day, and it's better to have tried, you know, and, and failed basically as well. I I do believe that, you know. Well, completely different opinions and they all going down to the forester in a similar point of OK, it's never too late to starting your own businesses. I mean, even the big CEO's of, of that are widely known, like Amazon, for example, the Jeff Bezos found of the company in his 30s, for example. And as you said, it's never too late. And I think he just, you have to have, you must have the passion and, and also a solid foundation of what you actually want to do and, and maybe having a side hustle in just as a start to build your, your own empire, to say the least. So Nathan, I was hearing a podcast from a host called Erica Warren. And I was, I was interested in knowing a bit more when how you used your own, your own dyslexic disability to develop rewise. And why do you think that UK schools and probably across the world. It's a it's a bit in a larger scale should adopt alternative education. So I think like on the personal side, they feel like getting, I touched upon it earlier when I was in school. I was basically told I was stupid, you know, to remember in English classes reading and, you know, reading and letters or words or names of people wrong. Ironically, I've always liked reading, you know, but I'd read it, I'd read and if it was a name I didn't, I couldn't. Oh, I thought I could say it right. Actually, I'm saying I couldn't say it wrong. I didn't even know. So I'm reading this name wrong. And it's only obviously that when you read it out to the class, you realize you're getting it wrong. And simple, simple words like said, for example, like get wrong or because So I always kind of had that. And I guess I would realize then that my brain may be working a little bit different. You know, I was writing business ideas down then, which is quite funny actually, because I look back at my notes too, and this is funny, but in the early kind of naughties, whatever you call it, I'd wrote down, Oh, you know, we should start Internet TV. So I'm kind of claiming Internet TV really and Netflix is an original idea. But I've always had that kind of thought, you know, and would think kind of a bit, you know, thinking strange with all these ideas or things deep. So in it for me in school. Then I realized, like, it didn't suit my style, you know, to set the picture my my secondary school, like I said, in a place called my near Caerphilly, in Caerphilly kind of county. And the new block was about 40 years old. You know, it's got graffiti in there from the 70s. And it was an old boys school. And I got to tell people that. And people think I must have been a private school. And no, it was like the funniest and the worst school ever where, yeah, no one seemed decay, I guess. You know, it was quite a rough, yeah, rough school, tough school. But you know, I liked my time because it shaped me of who I am. But I could see from a nudity I just put in all these bottom sets based on academic correctness and I'm thinking, you know, I shouldn't be in here. No one should, you know, again for that point because it's just because I'm doing thing in a different way. But I don't understand what's being said and told. I just can't like fathom it in the way it's being delivered is in someone just talking and writing it down on the board and there's not enough time. I mean, my handwriting even to this day is like I'm probably the only person in the world you can understand it like a code. So all of this kind of added up, I guess. And for me at the same time, I fell in love with music. But the way I like to look at it is you've got all that as negativity. OK, got all this negativity, You know, what do you need to combat negativity? You need positivity to bring some balance. And for me, it came from music and my love of like reggae music, hip hop music, music that basically, I guess I could identify with the message it was being told and almost that message of like the underdog, if you like, you know, So it really kind of resonated me and. I guess the social purpose of that music and the story it was telling. And I started to think in a bit deeper and think, oh, actually, you know, there is a world outside of like this classroom and this community, you know, whatever you want to call it. So I started to think, oh, well, you know, my, my brain might work a bit different in terms of education. That doesn't mean I'm stupid. And I'll never forget about go into a careers advisor and say, oh, you know, I got, I knew the idea. I had the idea, OK, to use music to teach the GCSE syllabus when I was like, 1415, you know, and a song come on the radio and I ended up kind of singing it back to myself really badly, as we do. And I thought, well, why can't I remember this Shakespeare that I'm learning? Why can't I remember Macbeth? You know, if this was in a credible song, I'd remember it subconsciously and it would make learning a lot easier. So even then I was thinking, OK, different learning style. But I went to a careers advisor and I couldn't even say that. Again, I didn't love the components that this is my idea. But I was like, I want to start a business. And they said to me, you know, basically don't bother. You know, you're not doing the right subject. Go and get a job in the factory around the corner. But you know, for me then that was someone to put on like the hit list. And I think, OK, well, if it's almost good that I've been told that because now I want to prove someone wrong, you know, and that gives you a bit of fire. And the same to all the teachers that ever said can't do this or can't do that. It's like, again, it's firing and they can't going to prove these people wrong relating that then back to like the business again, it's a direct result. Basically, after being diagnosed with being dyslexic on a bit of a high, you know, I graduated, I got them kind of high grades in a subject that if I'm completely honest, I didn't just go to lectures, you know, and that kind of because I was too busy running the business and working hard. DJ and promoting, should we say. But it showed me again, if you work hard, you can achieve. You know, I got all them books from the library and we all know what it's like when you go to the library at university and you can't get the first choice books. You get any really obscure text. But obviously that helps get in a different opinion. So, yeah, when I got them grades, it was like, yeah, it was like a magical kind of moment, if you like. And I felt, right, I'm going to go back and start that idea that I had when I was 14 to prove that anyone, this isn't just me, Anyone can follow their passion, whether that's a career, a business, the best passion of all, obviously just being like happy, fulfilled, you know, we can all do that if we put our mind to it. And yeah, that was a direct result of my education. We took, we started off by taking the GCSE syllabus. We made over 200 songs about different topics drawn on experience from musicians that I'd worked with that that proved really successful. And there's a few like, you know, anecdotes and stories, but I'm not going to take up all the time then. But in the early days, we had a lot of grants and funding and loans. You know, I had a lot of loans to start the business. And yeah, there was a few funny opportunities with, well, King Charles now and a Prime Minister at the time, which ended up getting us lots of promotion and kicking it off. And I think once we, once we'd settled on the music, we then kind of moved into other areas, you know, and it was looking how we could use things like technology that young people obviously engage with and essentially just get young people to learn by doing. You know, that was our ethos, Learn by doing. Our complete nutshell in what we do as an organization is giving a young person the challenge that they think they can't achieve. And the idea is they're giving positive coaching to achieve that. That leaves them with that positive association where they walk into a classroom and think, oh, I can't do this, you know, and they end up achieving it. And the idea is if we can follow that feeling, they can take that forward into every area of life, you know, And it doesn't matter if that's making a song or a podcast, a film, one of our kind of STEM kits, it's the same, you know, without that confidence, without knowing that they can achieve in a situation which is different to mainstream education, if you like, and maybe limits more like real life situations. And if they don't know that, I don't think people can achieve their potential. Yeah, that's the kind of I guess a medium answer on this subject. Was there also any sort of confidence that medium that you worked on with PhDs and also other clients if you had or you just completely PhDs? It's not only PhDs that I work with. Also some that are post docs are completely non academics. Non academic in the sense of they, they don't have a PhD or anything degree. And yeah, working with confidence for sure. And I think it's also a nice like angle that you're given to it, Nathan, because for me, it's also been a lot of me thinking I need to prove someone wrong. Like also for me in high school, I was told that I would never be able to be good in English. And now I've run a company in English and I got my doctorate degree in English, but I was told by my teachers that I'm a hopeless case. So and back then I already thought like, I'm going to prove you wrong. I'm going to learn this language at some point. Which is it's an amazing feeling to, isn't it? Then though, it gives you the confidence that that you go and push on to whatever the next kind of boundary is, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But, and I mean, I guess it's also kind of a good motivation, but it's also a sad motivation in a way because it's coming from a place of lack. Yeah. Or shortage and then as you do it, like actually encouraging the kids or younger or older people or students to like to show them you can do this from the start, but not like trying to prove them wrong first. Yeah. So that's really, I think that's really, really nice and. Really. Good and healthy approach. So sure, yeah. And for me working with confidence, it's yeah. Telling them also that they're doing enough, that they are enough, that they're worse is completely independent of how many hours they are in the lab or where they publish their papers. Like there's this prestigious thinking of having publications and specific journals or whatever, and also the confidence to yeah, to say no to protect their time, to not feeling selfish about OK, I need my focus time from 9:00 to 11:00. And this is not selfish, it's self protection. And yeah, so in this sense, I definitely. Also work with. With confidence. And that's we will we will talk on during the talk that it builds throughout time and short in Swedish. It is through trial and error and try in order to improve and that that will increase our confidence so so to speak. And I wonder through the three of you if you had any, any recent story or, or a long time story where the three of you had to face any issues with clients and students respectively. So would you like Jade to to share if you had the a story that you had to deal with a with a student who struggled a lot? Yeah. I mean, yeah, a lot of what we do is having lots of conversations and building confidence in people. And that takes time. And it takes building trust to get to know people. And kind of, I'd say from my perspective as a practitioner, it's meeting people where they're at and kind of getting rid of the assumption that all students are the same or, or people of a certain age are the same or certain level of study. And it's meeting that person where they're at from my side of it and sort of let I'm here to guide them and be a mirror back to them and reflect things back to them. But helping that to go somewhere and have conversations to help build their confidence and let them know what they could try and what are the smallest steps they can take to get to where they need to get to one student does spring to mind. And I've been in this role three years now within Careerboost, and it was probably a year and a half, maybe two years ago. I met a couple of years ago, I met with one of my first PhD students and he was a mature student as well. And So what I do before an appointment is I'll look at what they've studied, how they're getting on. I might read their CV if they've uploaded it, and I'll look at the appointment request and sort of see what it is they want to chat about. And you know, he had been working on a project within like a business, solving like a business problem. I can't remember the exact topic, I'm really sorry. But I looked at his credentials, his, his stage, his age, all of that. And I thought, I'm still quite new in this role. What, what value can I add? And my confidence wasn't the highest. And I thought he's at PhD level. He's far more, you know, I've studied to degree level, but I'm not sure if I can add any value here. It's a bit twofold. And I met with him and it was a really interesting conversation that we had. And we probably spoke for an hour together and I didn't find him a graduate job in that hour. You know, I didn't answer every single question he had. I didn't fix everything in that hour. And that's, it's me learning that that's not my role. But we had a really interesting discussion about personal confidence and professional confidence and the difference between the two and what it means to sort of move forward with with with some degree of confidence. So in this instance, this person had done really well in the field of academia, studying, working on that thesis for the past few years. But when it came to sort of transitioning in out of study or out of the bubble of, of, of academia in the university and into the wider world, there was that real uncertainty. And I can sense that. And all I can say is if there's a couple of things I'd share sort of nugget points is I cannot stress it doesn't matter what level of study you're at if you don't know what your next step is. So you're not, you don't have like a defined legal pathway. If you study, you've studied law or you don't have that role as a doctor if you've studied graduate medicine. If you don't know what comes next, I cannot stress enough how universal that wobbly feeling is, that feeling that you're stepping into that sort of no man's land. There's this tunnel, if you like, or this transition. And it's not, oh, I finished my PhD and the next day I'm a graduate employee or a graduate business owner. There's this, yeah, there's this, I don't want to say no man's land, but there's that period in between and I cannot, I just want to say that's a really universal feeling. It doesn't matter if you're an undergraduate or you've got 2 PhDs, if you don't know what comes next and you'll leave an education, it's, it can affect your confidence. That's absolutely normal. And if it didn't, I would almost think what's wrong here. And, and the other thing I realized from that conversation is because we had a talk about confidence itself. And he was really surprised when I admitted, I said I wasn't certain how much I could help you. He said, oh, you came across very confident. I said, well, I'm feeling more confident now because throughout this conversation and this appointment, I'm seeing where I can help you and the conversations going somewhere. But that helped him. And I remember seeing the penny drop for this PhD student when we I just said confidence in yourself and in your career. Yes, I suppose there should be this upward trend. It should over time, your comfort level of what you can do and what you're capable of and, and your skills that should expand and grow. But confidence is not this sort of flat line thing that's always steady and always high, even on a daily basis. It's it's, I always use the analogy that it is a wave and this fully formed self-confidence that never fluctuates or only ever improves is an absolute myth. And once students or new graduates realize that it's about learning to ride that wave of unhappy, you know, understand you will have those days where you maybe don't feel like you're the best at your job or where you're not really certain what comes next, even if that lasts a few weeks or few months. It's the resilience comes from being in it and riding out that wave. So it is the analogy, Nathan. But you know, if you try and sort of steel yourself and be resilient all the time and keep your confidence high, you'll struggle more than you need to. But as if you think this is going to be bumpy, I'm going to learn to ride that out. And I tend to speak in analogies quite a lot of the time. But on a practical level, it's just understanding that student learned that I didn't have this high level of confidence that was always there. And I even questioned what value I could add. And he said, I've never had a conversation like this with somebody before. And I know it's we're in partial service and I try to be helpful and make it about that student, not about me. But it helped, I think having that human conversation as well, that particularly the age we live in, career is such an aspirational thing. And life has become so aspirational that it's got this aesthetic to it that it looks pleasing and it always feels good. And confidence is the ultimate prize you can win. And it, I just kind of want to bust that myth somewhat because there are days I feel like I'm really great at my job and I feel like I'm really in control of it. And I feel really comfortable that I do. Or I feel like I've been challenged. And there are days where I just think I need to do a bit more reading up on this here. I need to do a bit more learning or that presentation. Oh my gosh, I must have. I didn't sleep well last night and I did that. I came across quite nervous. So if you can learn to deal with a fluctuation of confidence and understand that it's not always something to sort of steal yourself against, but you build it over time, and it's still OK if, like Nathan now 20 years or however many years into having your own business, it's OK if not everything goes well all the time. And that's the biggest message I'd want to get across to PhD students now is the universal feeling of them stepping out into the unknown and that lack of confidence where you've been confident for four years because you've been in your comfort zone of academia. But also just, yeah, don't strive for this confidence level or feeling of always getting it right and this perfect career that kind of needs to be put to one side. And it's about working through the struggle. And sometimes it's about surviving the day or the week or the month or whatever it is. And still very much we're always figuring things out. So I've been working now for sort of 20 years and, you know, people say, how do you love, you know, do you know what did you always know what you wanted to do? When I go any day now, I'll figure it out. You know, it's the progress bit of it. And I'm sure you can see the same that never stops. Like even once you obtain a certain level, there's something in you that wants to try something new or wants to maybe take your business to the next level or worries about what, what will life look like in five years or 10 years? Can I sustain this? And so, yeah, just don't don't worry too much about this high level of confidence that you have to have. It's those who learn to ride it out is what I'm saying that tend to be the most resilient and do the best in life, not those who appear confident all the time. That was my sort of mediums to long answer. So as a well as I was checking that medium will have to leave now and just medium. Would you like to share just your own thoughts of really in a quick way of if you have any advice for those who who want to take a PhD and also focusing on what Jada said, do you have any, any thoughts, any advice? Yeah, I I recently wrote a book and there I often wrote about thank you. And there one chapter is also about confidence or the imposter syndrome. And I also hear that from PhD a lot and even from postdocs. And wherever they go, they're still met with the imposter, right? And I like to look at it now from like 2 angles. 1 is if your imposter speaks up, then congratulations kind of thing because you are reaching your comfort zone. The imposter wouldn't raise its head if you're doing something that you've been doing for so long, right? Like it wouldn't it, it doesn't rise it's head if you're cooking, if you're walking, if you're writing, if you are speaking your first language or even your second. Like it's, it's not going to say anything. But as soon as we get to something that we haven't done before and when we feel insecure and it's like, Are you sure you can do this? Like rather keep it low. And in that sense, it's also trying to protect us, right? It's trying to protect us from being excluded from the group, from doing something that's potentially dangerous. So I think that angle helps me at least often. And the other one is kinda looking backwards, like when did I have these feelings of not being confident enough in the past? But I don't have it anymore now. Like I mentioned me speaking English before, I was so stressed when I had to speak English a few years ago, so stressed I was thinking about every single word I was speaking about my pronunciation. I couldn't really focus on the what was the person saying because I was so stressed. If I can't need to understand what they're saying and I need to have an answer that makes sense and that the grammar is correct and, and this is not there anymore, but it was there very much. And there's so many other examples that I can give you where I didn't feel confident at all. Which now I feel confident about, but that just brings me to the next level. So now I have new subjects where I don't feel confident about. And there's always going to be things that I don't feel confident about. Because as a human being, we want to grow and growing means to cross the border of our confidence. So that that kind of helps me not all day every day, but to to a good extent. So I think that would be a great advice for, for PhDs and those who also and those for, for those who who want to go try, try and to establish, found and establish their own businesses. So at least so before, just before you, you, you leave Medium, where did they, where can they find one time? You also said you have a podcast with the under the same name where where they can where they can find you. Yeah, it's one time dot EU. That's the web page, the podcast, the same name. It's on Spotify, Apple, YouTube. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Then you can actually write me something or ask a question, complain, whatever you feel like doing. I'm always happy to get in contact. So yeah, either way would be really nice. And then I'm sorry that I gotta leave now. No. No problem at all. We we, we we. Thank you for for your time and Jade Nathan, shall we continue because I would like to hear Nathan's side of the story and continue with that. And for students and graduates, make sure to check out Mediums one time podcast and her business. If you have any concerns and dealing with time management and stress and and any other the human trait that you are facing challenges, just shout out to check out Medium and she will be very helpful. Yeah, you have. Everyone welcome. Yeah, and thank you so much. It was so nice to meet you, Jake. Yeah, lovely to meet you. Thank you for the. Invite Louis and no problem at. All in touch. Let's stay in touch. Definitely, yeah. Thank you very much. Nice. To meet you too. Right. So just the three of us. #3. #3. I'm gonna just plug my computer in, guys. It's on the. And I need just to have a quick break and then we will we will write back. I will edit this anyways. Brilliant, fab, lovely. Just turn off the camera for a bit. I'll be right back. We're back students and graduates after a short break where Miriam had share her her own story and also any advice. But we will continue, and I still want to hear about Nathan. Jade has already shared her, her time, her story of a struggling time with her PhD. I'd like to hear about Nathan. If you had to deal with a business who wanted to work with you and how did that happened? Yeah, I mean, I think on the on the points that Miriam and Jade kind of raised and about kind of confidence, I think they would hit the nail on the head, really, to be honest with you. I think they were both kind of spot on. Like, obviously again, everyone, you know, goes through things differently in their own way. But I think the way Jade described it as like a wave, I think that's kind of perfect, isn't it? You know, everyone has days where they can take on the world. And don't get me wrong, I think especially maybe with a business, but I think also in employment, like sometimes you just have to do it doesn't matter how you feel. I mean, Jade mentioned feeling a bit nervous maybe before, you know, some scenarios at some points, but in scenarios like they just got to fake it. And you, you know, once you get it, once you get into that rhythm, obviously you know, you can do it and you've got the experience and the confidence. And I think that kind of gets you through the same with Miriam describing it. You know, the imposter syndrome thing, I think that is definitely and, you know, real thing. But I love the way she explained that and she looked at it from a positive side, which I think is really, really cool. And I think, you know, a lot of people, myself including, can take yeah, take a lot from that. And the way that was explained by her as well. So yeah, I remember, you know, I always look at it like a computer game, similar to the way in different levels, basically. And again, it was discussed by by both ladies. You know how when you go through certain levels, you you unlock different challenges. And obviously you can feel a bit unconfident in them at the start, but then once you get into it and realize you can do it, you kind of pass the level and you move to the next level. So I think my thoughts are kind of a combination of both really, in terms of it's good to sometimes kind of have them challenges, you know, whether that kind of manifests like self doubt or, you know, stress or thinking you can't do something. But I think you've got to have that side to have the other side then of doing it and thinking, Oh yeah, you know, I did it. But it's back to my kind of personal man. Because if you, you know, if you put the work in and you've got that self belief, you know, you can get over them hurdles and you can unlock the next level. Really. I'm trying to think there's many kind of stories I could kind of tell really to kind of sum it up in an anecdote for you guys in a personal experience. But I guess one of my kind of favorites is kind of at the start where I had the opportunity to kind of work basically to set the scene. You know, we, we were in the minus figure in the early days and it was not going well. There were loans to be paid back and I had the opportunity. I was invited again. I'd always look for that opportunity. And I remember meeting a really nice guy, director of the the Prince's Trust at the time. And he's again, if anything, I can help with. And then I basically looked in my kind of little black book at the time and found his number. And then he invited me to this press conference. And I didn't realize till I got there that I had the opportunity to ask a question to the Prime Minister. But I knew that I had to do something on that day to basically kind of kick start the business. There was no money for marketing. And then I found myself in a room, you know, with like, I don't know, like 300 people, whatever it was, and all the kind of press and, and the Prime Minister had been interviewed. And I thought, well, I've never done any public speaking. How am I going to speak in front of these people? You know, I didn't even spoken university 1st, Like, how am I going to do this? But again, I think it's that voice within, isn't it? Where you're like, OK, I've got to do this, but don't do this, you know, and there's no guarantee. Obviously anything will happen as a result of it. But if I don't at least do it, I'm not going to go on to this next level, you know, going to be stuck at this level where you think that you can't do it. So, so in my in this case, and I did it and I told him. And again, this is always the case, you know, even with a lack of confidence, it tends to be that we'd still know a lot more than we give ourselves credit for in the area. You know, it's almost that kind of monkey brain holding us back basically and saying that you can't do it when in reality, if you are worrying and having a confidence much when you probably spent like however long going over and over anyway. So you do actually know it. So I told them, the Prime Minister about what we wanted to achieve with them, learn through music, which was the brand with the GCSE resources. And he basically said it sounds great, whatever. And as we were having this dialogue, I got more and more confident, you know, So I'm like saying to him, you must remember it was to your favorite songs. And then it was quite funny actually, because he was the one nervous because the interview was sensed his nervousness and kind of changed tact with the interview a little bit. So it's funny seeing him under pressure. And then as a result of that face, I guess the term now is we went viral. So I did like interviews with every TV station, radio show in Wales and the UK, and then also in countries as far afield as, you know, Russia and Mexico and so on the front page at times. Education two days later. And yeah, basically we sold about 30,000 licenses off the back of that. So it just kind of really kick started everything. And it was funny though, I was thinking, I went into that room the most kind of nervous person with kind of everything on the line. And then by the end of it, I'm sat in the chair at the front, ultimately kind of giving my own press conference. It just shows, I guess, if you take that chance, even if you think you can't do it, you know, the chances are that you can. I'm not recommending people go and take like swinging from ropes, you know, from 50 foot up if they think they could do it. Obviously you need to have kind of foundation in what you're doing, but but at the same time, if you really want to swing from that rope 50 feet up, you put the work in and one day you will, you know, it's as simple as that really. You don't ask, you don't get. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Who was the Prime Minister at the time? At the time it was Gordon Brown, so yeah, I. Have no known. Oh, I only have known from Tony Blair. And then the next you said George, it was George you said. Gordon, Gordon. Gordon. Gordon. And then David Cameron. Yeah, the rest we know. I. Mean I'll, I'll be honest, I don't think I would have been able to do that. Maybe now or in the in the last 14, you know, past years just because, yeah, I will go into my view on politicians. But yeah, we'll leave it there. But it's it's interesting that that you said that it was the Prime Minister who was more nervous in hearing you than than yourself. By the end, I think the the reason was because they were asking him questions, obviously, where we had to ultimately try and show a personality. So when they said, oh, what music do you like, he's thinking, oh, oh, what you know what, what shall I say? What am I going to say here that's going to like appeal to people, I guess. And you know, looking at his, his personal kind of aids and everybody to think, oh, what do I say? You know, this is, this has gone off script here. But it was a funny moment, you know, on that as well. When he did say to me, he said, I look, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll speak to you about this and we'll see what we can do. And then I sat back down thinking I'm going to happen. And then the tap on the shoulder from someone giving me this card. And it was effectively like the Prime Minister, like business card, you know, like #10 down the street and all these details. And then we did end up being put on a, on a project, music based project in England as well. So yeah, you know, it was finally day that, but one that I've learned to expect. You know, days like that do happen. Yeah. And I think it's all about, as you said, is finding any gaps that we have in ourselves. And we were speaking about the confidence very often throughout the talk. And I think is again, through trial and error and using that best to improve in ourselves. I can speak also from my, from my personal experience when I started with my undergraduate that I wasn't really good at public speaking. And one of the greatest advantages that on my, on my degree on cultural heritage in archaeology, we were pushed by the lecturers to speak in public because that's what's a, that's what a cultural heritage officer does speaking in public. And that helped me a lot to be to move a bit and trying to understand the game of the of being in front of an audience and explain to that, which led me to now what I'm currently doing, albeit in front of a camera, which is a bit more awkward in a sense, because trying to make exercise my eyes to speak in front of the the camera in the middle of the desktop rather than on the corner. And then looking at the people. But again, that's also what takes for for a PhD as well. And as Jade Doswick share her, her her story about a PhD be increasing her confidence. It's his confidence in trying to transition from an academic lens to an industry scope. Yeah, 100%. I think confidence is key, isn't it? You know, whether again, if you have to fake it, sometimes it's all part of that journey, you know, you get where you want to be ultimately having the confidence to do what you want to do isn't it as well. And realizing that not every step or every task, you could love your job and still not like 70% of the tasks you do. It's Nathan. Like Nathan said, you do it to get it done because the bigger picture or the bigger reward is there. So there's a lot that goes into it and invest in that you have to do to get the output. And the output is fun and that sense of satisfaction. But there's a lot of for myself, you know, a lot of like boring tasks, emails that reminders. There's a lot of admin around it. I still love what I do but it doesn't mean enjoy everything sometimes like you said it's just let's just get on with things. Yeah. It's like you said, there's one to do. There's no, like people get fixated on this perfect kind of vision of what something is, you know, whether that's a job and like you said it with confidence and stuff, you know? And in reality, it's not like that, is it? You know, everything is like that, Yeah. It's all life, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. It's not. Separate from our life, it's all sort of woven in and it's all, it's all life. And yeah, good, the bad. And some of it's ugly, yeah. Exactly. But it's, I think it's like like it's not switching mentality, isn't it? To kind of almost so accept that, you know, and not go searching for this perfect kind of vision that ultimately kind of doesn't exist, you know, and probably worse now when it's portrayed on social media and everything else as existing as well, isn't it, you know, false. That's a section of what you can achieve, you know. We're here to de influence careers. It's de influencing and it's almost like finding joy or finding satisfaction in in whatever it is you're doing on a daily basis. I've loved this. I think I could do this again. This is good fun. It's not something I've done before, but it's finding what you enjoy and just getting on with it as well, I think. And treat it like a video game. Yeah, always, always, always. Or a surfing session. That was the one thing that was missing over Christmas, sadly. I can imagine. Yeah, it's a wave, no doubt. No doubt. Now I'm back in the office, it'll be it'll be on major in the media. There we go. That's. Good. It's guaranteed. So before the before we wrap up, would you like, do you guys have any other things I would like to share any upcoming upcoming projects Nathan and JJV is aspire to be coming back for this. That's really interesting. We don't know yet. We haven't had that conversation. So do you mean I broadcast the? Program that we did. So aspire to be the company and we worked with I broadcast the sort of five day residential media program. We don't know yet, definitely at some point in the future. No plans for it to be this term, but we do see a lot of benefit from it. So we are the thing. What I love about what I get, what I get to do is that we can try things and we can try other things and try new things and we get to just put feelers out and see what works and what doesn't. So one thing that we are doing and we started it last time as we've put together, we've never done it before, a series of teaching sessions that we deliver rather than outsourcing that delivery. So you know, I've got years of experience now working in in employability or in in industry. So we are doing a set a series called Boost Your Series. So it might be boost your resilience, it might be boost your brilliant brain. If you're new or diverse, it might be I'm trying to think of all the other sessions now Boost your AI. So if you want to learn more about AI, we are actually delivering them as a team. So we will have some sessions on both campuses coming up this term from February onwards. The students can sign up to if they want. I would say if again, going back to you don't know what you don't know as a starting point, if anybody wants, even if they don't know why they're coming to the appointment, they just know they need to start somewhere and have a conversation of some type. Look at the careers and employability web pages and look where you can book an appointment with an advisor, whether that's a careers advisor or career consultant or a career boost advisor, which is what I am. Book that first appointment. Yeah, even if you want to set up your own business, because we can signpost you to the right resources. So I do a lot of referrals and a lot of signposting. I can have that one-on-one conversation with somebody and tell them what events or workshops are going on that might be suitable for them. So I would say that the starting point is always, you know, get on the website, book an appointment, even if you're not sure if it's with the right person, get to somebody in careers, they can signpost you to the right person and then we can take it from there. But that reaching out and booking their first appointment is, is what's going to kick start everything for them. But in terms of events and workshops, there's always something new that that we are creating or looking and we want to listen to our students. That's a big thing a lot because we are funded by Welsh Government. We student voice is really important to us. And I only learn about what students really need if they come and meet with us and then we can respond to that need and, and what they're looking for and, you know, offer something that's hopefully valuable to them. But yeah, get in touch and book that first appointment. And that's a really good starting point, I'd say. And then, yeah, we'll go from there. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I would say the same really like advice to anybody really. They follow your, follow your gap, follow your heart and believe in yourself. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't be afraid to kind of ride that wave. That wasn't it. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I would say similar with the roller coaster. And it's like, don't be afraid of when you're at the bottom because only we're weighing this up. And again, you know, you will get there if people believe in yourself basically and everyone on the on the call today is going to testament to that with your personal journeys as well. And for us, you know, we've got another busy year. We're kind of all over. We're, yeah, heading out on a few international trips to kind of broaden our partnerships come fab. And then we've got a load of different projects on the go as by versus trying to tackle toxic masculinity and within kind of colleges with pre and post 16 learners to teaching people skills for the new kind of green economy, to helping people move into career progressions within that as well. To get young people to make videos about their local communities to see opportunities, you know, and then there's like, you know, seven other projects in between which involve making new STEM kits for clients as well. So it's yeah, it's a busy start to the year as always. And, you know, my advice for everyone again, would be, and if you, especially if you're in this one of the university, go and speak to Jade. And I think, you know, having having worked with Jade myself and then ultimately worked with Luis as well, you know, I can see the benefits of the scheme. That Jade runs not just for organizations like mine, but also for people like Louis. She has been, you know, pleasure to work with and and to see see your growth to reach as an individual and everything you've achieved the PhD to get in the podcast running and you know, see in the drive that you have. You know, that that is, I would say, as beneficial to me, you know, as obviously having someone come and help us in the business, you know, seeing what the people achieved in that role. So definitely reach out to Jade. Also, everyone should read Miriam's book as well. Having huge theories. I wish everyone a kind of a successful 2026 and enjoy it. Yeah, and I also want to thank to Jade as well for providing me providing the opportunity for me to meet Nathan and work with him and have having further opportunities to to work with Nathan. And it's, I think 2026 is going to be just like 20252026 will be even better. So, and, and Nathan, this is this, this is the, the opportunity for you to go to Nazareth and swimming the big waves. So by the way. So if you want to. Try it out OK if not if not, you can still you can still go to the the the other town nearby Nazareth called Panish, but. It's more about. Tubes, so super tubes and you can go it's really lovely obescatory town. Same, same as Nazareth. It's, I think it would be better to go to the former and you can meet directly Gareth McNamara. I think so. I think one day it would be good to go with yourself, Lucia. Yes, take A, take an espresso, take a. Point with espresso, 100 percent, 100%, I'll hold you to that. If, if it doesn't happen in 2026, then definitely in the next few years, 100%. I look forward to us meeting for a nice coffee, whether that's South or Garb or anywhere in Portugal and obviously in Wales as well. Yes. I'm going. There next month. Actually, I'm going there next month in February too, just to get some heat as well. Yeah. Escape the cold. Escape the cold. I don't blame you. I don't blame you. I will. I just, I just wanted to add, sorry, this is a really nice full circle moment because obviously like you said, and I don't know whether I explained it earlier, you started the eye broadcast, didn't you? And then went on to do an internship with Nathan and and a lot of what we do is supporting the employers as well as students. But off the back of this, Luis, this is your business and you have have I have to mention it. You have now taken students for work tasters and work experience. So Louis has become an employer and I'm like, how great is that? This is like a really nice full circle moment of seen that everything come together and the student become the master and yeah, it's great start to the year and I think it's going to be a really good year for you as well. It sums up everything we've talked about in that circle as well, doesn't it? Because it's great. Yeah, absolutely. It's great. Yeah. Thank you SO. Much thank you, thank you so much. And just a quick way where students and graduates can follow you to connect with and also students. Swansea Uni students, just reach out to Jade. So for me, I'd say get on the web pages. So it's Swans University Careers and employability, that's what our service is called. And within that you'll find information about Career Boost or about the central service where students can book an appointment. Once you've got that link to an appointment, you can basically choose whether you want a 1 to 1 guidance appointment with an advisor or you want a Career Boost appointment. We have a lot of tools and resources online. Don't worry about figuring everything out once you got that appointment or you've met with somebody. We can signpost students to what they need. But yeah, get on the careers and employability web page and either speak to us or have a look at some of the resources. If somebody wants to drop an e-mail and they are listening to this, we've got an inbox is Korea Boost at swansea.ac.uk. And that's a good central point to to get in touch with me as well. So yeah, that's. It Nathan. Yeah. I would say if anyone's interested in in the work that we do or yeah, would like any advice, would just like to reach out to us in general. Our website is rewise.co.uk and you can contact us via the contact form and then we'll always get back to people, OK? So thank you to both of you and Medium as well. And I just say for the students and graduates who are tuning into this, all the best for your exams first and foremost, and just reach them out and yeah, I'm sure you will have a great time. So thank you all for tuning in and it has been a pleasure. Thank you, Luis Obrigado, and I've been able to catching up with you in the coming weeks. And maybe when you're back from Portugal, we'll grab a coffee as well. Yeah, for sure. We'll. Go off interview at some point and I dare say I'll speak to you soon. Jade as well take. Care. Thank you very much. Take care, bye bye.