Late-Night Talk: Nigel Pollard, PhD, and Stephen Harrison, PhD. The PhD After The PhD

Nigel Poland and Stephen Harrison welcome and it's been a pleasure to have you both here and now this time we're having a an informal and relaxed conversation between now my me as a former student of my former supervisors. So how, how, how is how's everything today and how now we've been going this process of post Easter break and now the mark the marketing process. I mean, I'm a research leaf, so it's amazing because I'm not doing that. So yeah, I'm just kind of chilling out, doing some research, thinking about a new project, which is fun, OK. What kind of what? Kind of project. Well, for the first time since I started my PhD in 2011, I've got to come up with a new project. So I've been exploring, I guess, what I might do with the next five years or 10 years or however long a project takes. So trying to think about kind of big questions and maybe we'll come to this later on. I think, you know, you've just finished the PhD. And if you're thinking about future research, the kind of obvious thing is what would the next chapter of the PhD be? And then when the PhD becomes a book, the office chapter, the obvious thing to think about is what would the next kind of chapter in the book I've just written be? And I very much don't want to do that. I want to do something new. So I've been exploring different different kinds of things, OK. And we can talk about that A. Bit better and it it's nice to to talk to you in a slightly different environment now that you've finished your your PhD on on which congratulations. You look a lot more, you look a lot more chilled out, Louis, than the last time I saw you. Yes, which is completely understandable. You look like a man who is a few months removed now from the kind of end game. Yes, so first of all, thank you and also thank you for being my supervisors. Then you've been just a being on my on my sides for for six years, so the so to speak since since the beginning of my masters and and that was a really great achievement. Now, as you said, I'm a bit more relaxed, but at the same time I got to, I was literally before, before doing this, running the tests and everything, I was writing my article, my future article for a volume about, about ancient migrations. And that was a result from my, the, my latest conference, my last conference I presented at in Coimbra, the Celtic Classics. And so I'm relaxed and I need to focus on that this next little chapter and just doing the old things, seeking a job within the field and see how it goes, both academic and non academic. But we have any conversations on that. So, So what? Who would like to start off telling about your academic background and what led you to decide to to do your PhD? You go first, Nigel. All right, because I'm the oldest. Supervisor. You should. I finished my, so I finished my PhD in like 1990 three, 1994. So that was quite a long time ago, but in, so I did my PhD at the University of Michigan in the US, I actually, Stephen and I both did our undergraduate degrees in the same place in the UK, but I think we've got very different career paths in academia since then. So in terms of, of what, how I got into to doing a PhD, my, my pH DS in classical archaeology, classical art and archaeology technically, but that, and, and I mean, it's not. So when I was an undergraduate, I did classics undergraduate degree. And before I'd, even before I'd done that, I'd, I'd done some field archaeology as a teenager and I got, I was put off doing field archaeology as before I was an undergraduate. But then after I'd been an undergraduate for a year, I, I ended up going on a field project in Italy and I, I kind of rediscovered archaeology and I want, so I wanted to do more of that. And I was mixing with academics who were, were working on that field project and so kind of talking to people. And so that got me sort of interested in the idea of carrying archaeology forward. And initially I wasn't so much focused on doing a PhD and what I, what I started doing actually after I graduated was applying to do masters level archaeological science degrees in things like environmental archaeology and archaeological petrology, study of ceramics and things like that. But it was kind of an odd time because those were notionally scientific courses, but they were also in archaeology and the funding bodies at the time couldn't get their heads to get gather over the idea of something that was science within a humanities thing. So neither of the humanities or the science funding bodies in the country at that point were willing to fund that, that kind of degree. And you couldn't get loans to do that sort of thing. So, but I worked as a a field archaeologist for a few years and it was poorly paid and it was short contract work and, and I I didn't love the the mechanics of working out in in muddy wet fields in Gloucestershire enough to want to continue to do that. So I decided either to do a PhD, which seemed to me a bit more, a bit more glamorous than the buddy fields in, in Gloucestershire, if I could get funding to do that. And I, I was at that point I was applying to the, the, the US because the funding environment in the UK was very different from what it is now. But the, the alternative was to get a proper job. So I, I was applying for jobs in, as a trainee accountant in, in City of London financial firms. And I was holding an offer from a City of London accountancy firm when I got the offer of, of PhD funding, mostly by working part time at the University of Michigan. And at that point I thought, well, OK, I might as well give it a try. I'll go to the US for a year, see how it goes. And, and so I, I went to the US and I did my PhD there. So that was that was the story of how I came to do a PhD. Yeah, I think, I think you're right, Nigel. Mine's a little bit different in that I did my undergrad degree in, in history and studied a wide range of different topics. And in my second year, I did a module on kind of the ancient Greek world. And as part of that I, we were writing a weekly essay and I did an essay on Alexander. And I happened to do the essay on Alexander pretty much the week we were asked to think about what our dissertation topics should be for 3rd year. And I was like, oh, this seems interesting, so maybe I'll do that. So then I did my third year undergraduate station in history, but doing Alexander the Great. And I think, I guess we've all found this, that once you start asking one question about a particular time period, you quite quickly find another one. And so I am my kind of intellectual trajectory with the projects were quite natural in that the undergrad dissertation, I can still remember what it's called. It's on the shelf over there. It was called Alexander the Great and the constraints of Macedonian kingship. And it was kind of about how far, what are the limitations on power even in a theoretically absolute monarchy and how do kings interact with the people around them and how do the people around them constrain the King's ability to to act independently and how does that change over time? And Alexander's quite a good example of that. And it fitted in at the time there was some kind of, this was what yours is 2009. There was, there had been in the last kind of 10-15 years, quite a lot of debate about kind of whether Massazoni was a constitutional monarchy or not. So I kind of got interested in that and then decided to change from from history to kind of classics to ancient history in to do a master's. And I was lucky enough I got a bit of funding to take a year out and to learn Greek for year, which is a lot of fun because anyone who's learnt a language will say you can't spend 9 hours a day learning a language, can you? You like break it up? So I had a lot of fun that year as well and did a lot of other things. Yeah. So learned Greek for. Yeah. And then I did my masters in classics. And for that kind of, I was interested a little bit more in Alexander and the successes. And that's where I first started to get interested in royal space, which Lewis is something we've obviously spent a lot of time discussing, going right back to your masters. So I kind of got interested in that. And then as I was getting towards the, I guess, the masters. Yeah, it's a really intense, yeah, particularly because, you know, some masters are 12 months long. Like, obviously the one you did, Lewis's 12 months, where it's the one I did was nine months. And so you had written like 2 essays and it was March and you were starting to think about a final thesis, but you're also thinking about what am I doing next year? And I had friends who were kind of applying for PhDs. So I thought, well, I'll give it a go and I'll give it a go and see what happened. And I came up with a project idea that was kind of putting Alexander into his, into his context. So I had kind of a question that I was interested in in answering. It was also that time where, yeah, everyone was kind of just a lot of people I knew was applying for PhD. And I thought, well, there's no harm in applying for one and seeing what happens. So I looked around a few different places, had offers from a few different places, None of them, none of them funded. And then I got a little bit of funding to stay in Cambridge, where I was free. Yeah, got excited about that. And then I got offered funding at Durham and I turned it down to stay in Cambridge because I had kind of already mentally committed to doing it. But I think like for me, why I chose to do a PhD was, I mean, you're a long time working essentially was the attitude. I was having fun, I was enjoying it, had a question I wanted to answer. And I didn't really see the need to go out and get a job in the real world at 21 or 22, which is what my friends are doing. And they were all going to do exactly what Nigel just talked about, going into the city and getting jobs like that. And him, because I, because I'd done my I, because I'd done my kind of year out learning Greek and then my master's quite a lot. My friends were totally two years in and had a lot of friends who were a bit older. So they're like 2 to five years into their career. And they were told me about what they were doing in law films and stuff. And it just sounded miserable, man. It just sounded awful. Like genuinely like, you know, people are, you know, up all night, incredibly high pressure, like all of that kind of stuff. And I just thought, yeah, it'd be more fun to do PhD. And it was, yeah. Whereas I, I, I got immensely anxious about the fact that I wasn't on, on a very clear kind of career path. And I never actually was on a very clear career path until I hit about 40. But I don't know whether it was partly about the just me or whether it was something about the what it about the nature of the times. I mean, this was back in the, I mean, I graduated from my undergraduate degree in 1984 with 11.9% unemployment rate and, and I felt like, you know, I, I needed to progress and get a proper job in some sense. And that was kind of just what people did in those days. So, you know, for me, the, the, the, the, the archaeological field work was a bit of a distraction that the PhD seemed like a track into something with, you know, with prospects, as it were. Little did I know, however. I think, Nigel, that's where it got it maybe changed a little bit between when you were doing your PhD and when I was doing mine, because I think by the time I was doing mine, which I started mine in 2011, I think maybe the numbers of people who are doing PhDs in all subjects are started to increase quite a lot by then. And I think certainly like my supervisors and the people that I was kind of getting advice from were very clear that, you know, don't do a PhD if you expect, don't do a PhD solely because you want a job in academia, because you statistically will be disappointed. And you know, those of us who've got jobs in the last decade, decade and a half, I think all feel very grateful and fortunate and are aware that there are you, you have to get hugely lucky. You know, like when it went for my job, I got, I got AI got an 11 month job at Swansea in 2016 and 10 years later I'm still here. And the job advert, I remember the job advert. Maria Pretzler was on sabbatical. They needed somebody, a teacher module on Alexander the Great. How many of the people in the country had just finished APHD on Alexander the Great of the year that I did? You know, had that module, had Maria been down to teach one of her other modules like Arcade Greece, I wouldn't have been an obvious person to be shortlisted. And so yeah, I think I maybe went into the PhD thinking it might not lead to a job in academia, but kind of having a page, doing a PhD will be fun. I'll enjoy it and the skills I'll get from it will make me employable. And having that on my CV, regardless of what I want to do in my mid 20s, like it'll, I'll be employable, you know? I mean that, that element of luck is, you know, is, is massive and it, it tremendously important. And, and I've, I've been lucky at so many different stages of, of my career. But I mean, you know, a lot of that the, the, whether there are jobs or not jobs or whatever, you know, I mean that that's been the same through time. So I mean, that year that I, I graduated from my undergraduate degree, you know, there was it that was really, really bad in terms of academic jobs. And, and I think the fact that I went on to do a PhD shows how naive I was at the time. Really, you know, there's one academic job at Leicester, which Andrew Wallace Hadrill got, for example. And I knew all these people who were like junior research fellows and who were, you know, like we're all applying for this job and, and you know, I mean that that was about the worst. And then when I was at Michigan doing my PhD in the, by the, the late 80s, early 90s, one of the American educational charities, I can't remember which one it was, and thought there was going to be a big shortfall of, of, of, of academics in the humanities in the US starting from the mid 90s onwards. And so they, they were actually funding scholarships for people to, you know, have a year to do their research as PHD's. I've got one of those. But then we get to like 9394 when I graduated in the US and the bottom had dropped out of the humanities academic job market completely and there were hardly any jobs again. And I ended up coming back to the UK and thinking I was going to do something completely different. But then actually the job market was quite buoyant in the late 90s in the UK. So I got lucky in that respect. So, you know, kind of I think it's, it's up and down things, things change and it's it's often quite unpredictable. Yeah. Well, I think we can. We can all agree that besides the PhD just having, being fun and then leading to different outcomes, but also having its own challenges. It kind of reminds me what I've what I've been doing with the PhD. Initially, I would say, OK, I'm, I want to go to academia, but then after hearing some thoughts, after hearing your, your feedback as well, that made me think, Oh, well, now that I've finished, obviously I'm just scattering myself around to, to chase employability within the field, which is, is still, is still ongoing. But at the same time, having the this tremendous amount of effort and also absorption of knowledge that I was, I would never thought I would get something out of it. I think it was just to say that the PhD would be, it is something that is fulfilling, that is so fulfilling and also exciting at the same time of being busy in producing knowledge. And just as you said, Stephen, it's rather to do that than sitting down at an office writing, typing BS basically. And, and the thing and The thing is that it kind of reminds me as well while we were talking. So even they kind of reminds me of that time that you went to get some fun to learn Greece. At the time I finished my undergraduate I was on an Erasmus gap year, but in context of finding an internship which I happened to find, I happened to found one in in Berlin which was my golden ticket so to speak before jumping onto the masters. But I think, and I think like, you know, you're talking about kind of going on an academic track and then coming off it thinking about where you are now. I think, you know, one of the things I because you know, I'm 38 now, so my mates are all, you know, 15-16 years into their careers. And it's been quite interesting to see how a lot of friends have changed from from the outside, it looks like quite a big career change every three or four years. And actually it's the, what they've got are, if I can quote Liam Neeson, a particular set of skills, right? And they, they have those skills that let them go and do whatever looks interesting. And I think I've kind of taken this attitude into, it's got some ridiculous fact. I did the, I did my under, I did my undergrad, my masters and my PhD in the same place. And I spent 10 years in, in Cambridge and then I got an 11 month job in Swansea and 10 years later, I'm still here. So I'm going to say something that sounds stupid because I've, it looks from the outside like I've just been on a very obvious track all the way through. But one of the things I've learned from my friends is I think you don't need to think 10 years down the line in terms of, of career. Maybe I'm at the point now with career development where I need to think a bit more, a bit more long term and plan for, for things a little bit more. But I think you can think in two or three-year cycles. And I think it's really important. And the thing I've always tried to do is make an active choice to do the thing that I'm going to do rather than just fall into it. So I had, like I say, I didn't just assumed that I would stay in Cambridge after my master's to do my PHDI looked at other places, I talked to lots of people and then I made the decision to stay when I kind of first was thinking about going into academia. I, I didn't just apply for academic. Well, in the end, I did just apply for academic jobs, but I didn't just look at academic jobs. I basically just because of when, when I finished, like my Viva was in October, so my corrections took me through to January. So then I was like, well, the job round will start in March and I had a little bit of part time work that I was doing anyway. So look, I'll give myself one round of academic jobs. But while I was doing that, I looked at think tanks, I looked at kind of grad schemes, I looked at civil service and I looked at all of the different things. And what I was trying to do is I was talking to people who worked in those jobs and I said, look, just describe your 9 till 5 to me. So for example, I talk, I talked to somebody at think tank where you know, they're doing lots of research and I think a lot of what they do sounds really interesting. But then I was like, but if you're doing that, somebody else is telling you what you need to go away and research. Whereas if I can stay in academia, I can dictate the terms of that myself. So I was kind of weighing those things up. But then I had, you know, I had the 11 month contract and then I got offered the opportunity to stay for the same. And that when my contract got renewed and that was another opportunity where I thought, OK, have I enjoyed this enough that I want to do this or do I want to look at other opportunities? And they've been 3 or 4 times where I've kind of made those decisions. And I've had opportunities to leave Swansea and go to the places. And I've kind of been weighing up what is best for me, you know, and I think it's really important to kind of always be actively saying like, how do I develop my career? What's the I want to take on my on the path now that I thought I would be on or that I want to be on in the future? Yeah. And I do think also that not I'm saying from a PhD perspective, that it, it makes you proactive and you gain proactivity skills in order to map out what are the, the other ventures that I could choose from and making a sort of a mind mapping of, OK, here's the list of, of opportunities that I go for, both academic and non academic, while at the same time being building something, building some skills that can be transferable to, to the future. And just having a, a patience game essentially to reach any of one of those outcomes. If it, whether if it is, as you said, your 11 month contract at Saint University. And then afterwards having that opportunity, making a self reflection of of yourself. And OK, they gave me this opportunity, grab it or leave it. Yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, when, when I, I finished my PHDI, you know, I, I very much envisage that I would become an academic and, and, and I united and, and probably in the US as well. But, and I interviewed for a few jobs, but really competitive there. And, and I mean, I had a one year job in the US after after my PHDI had a one year job on an American programme in in Italy after I did my PhD as well. But there came a point where I basically moved back to the UK because I couldn't stay in the US any longer, at least legally. And the So I figured I was, I was out of academia at that point. And I was, I mean, in terms of side, I went, I went several years before I got another academic job. And a lot of that time I spent working as the university administrator because it was a world I knew. And initially I was, I moved back in with my, my parents who live near the Open University in, in Milton Keynes. So I was an academic administrator at the, the Open University. And a bit later on I started working on early educational technology for the Open University as a consultant. So this is kind of early web-based learning and early use of ebooks in learning and things like that. But that, that I was kind of looking around and, and thinking of other things and, and looking at other opportunities at the time. So I mean, I, I did a, a, a travel agent course because I figured I might try and set myself up as a, a sort of, you know, travel agent focusing on the, my expertise in Mediterranean world, cultural travel, that kind of thing. So I did AB I think. I think given, I think given what's happened in some of the regions that you're an expert in, Nigel, I think it's really good that you didn't go down the route of kind of travel guides taking people on holiday through Syria. I think the the bottom might have fallen out of that market for you at some point. Yeah, but I, I kind of, I, I fancied focusing it on Italy somewhere where we go for a nice lunch rather than necessarily, you know, have to, to dodge extremist violence of one kind of rather. But, but connected with that. Another completely unrelated route that I was really interested in was actually psychiatric nursing and, and counselling, because that was at the time that was an interest of, of mine. My and yeah, my, my, my mother would for, for non psychiatric reasons was in and out of hospital a bit at that time. And I, you know, I was actually kind of ended up talking to nurses and things like that. Same way, you know, actually quite fancy nursing, possibly psychiatric nursing. And they say, well, you know, yeah, I think that I'm too old. They say no, no, you because I was about Stephen's age then a little bit younger. They say, no, you're not too young to train to do that. But it did seem like a big commitment trying to get the, you know, like funding and, and, and do another like, you know, two or three years or something to train to do something when I just spent six years training to do something that hadn't panned out. So that they were also, but, and, and you know, to great degree, I think it was just, it was luck that I got back into academia because I, I spent a year at the British School at Rome, rather as a rather random consolation prize for not having, I got a research fellowship because I'd applied for a job there that I hadn't got. And they said, well, actually, but if you want to stay on and do a year's research. And that got me to a post doctoral research assistant job in Oxford because it was focusing on, on providing research assistance connected with excavations in in the city of Rome for Margaret Stainby, who was the professor of, of archaeology the Roman Empire there at that point. And, and, and that kind of sucked me back into to academia. So, and in some ways a lot of the stuff that I've done over the last 10 years or so has taken me outside of strictly academic worlds and I enjoy that a lot. And in some ways I perhaps wish I'd been a bit more imaginative or things have gone a different way after I'd finished the PhD. I mean, it was never something I was so committed to that I couldn't envisage, you know, that I would have been like a starving independent researcher or something like that. I always would have been looking to do something more substantial. And I wasn't, I wasn't afraid to go off in other directions. But in the end I just, and then from Oxford, I ended up coming to Swansea and that was really luck. And so in some senses, it sort of worked out through a series of of of opportunities that came up. But actually if it had gone in another direction, I think while it would have been quite daunting thinking of going in that other direction at the time, it probably would have worked out in another way. So. Just just on what you said then I should, I think is I think you could, you sort of said it wasn't the be all and end all for you. And I think I feel like that as well. I honestly had never thought about applying for an academic job until I was in my Viva because at the end of my Viva, my external examiner, Tom Harrison and my internal Paul Miller just sort of said, you know, some things you'll need to fix for the thesis. But bike, what we're really thinking about is how you turn it into a book. And I was like a book. You reckon this could be a book really. And then they saw and I've never thought of it like that. And kind of then sort of had a little chat about kind of careers and sort of that was. And I think you spend a huge amount of time in academia feeling stupid that there's always somebody in the room who's cleverer than you. Whichever room you're in, there's always somebody, right? And I think that your academic ideas, if you're not careful, become very much an extension of you. And so when somebody criticises your idea, it feels like a deeply personal criticism of you as a human being, which, you know, sometimes the way people phrase things make it seem like it is. And it shouldn't be done like that. But I think having the attitude that there are other things in the world that you could be good at, I think helps you keep the perspective you need to maintain your sanity when you're finishing a PhD, coming out of the PhD, thinking about going into an academic, into an academic job. And I also think it makes you, I don't know, it feels like it maybe makes you more employable as well. Showing that you've got the got the rounded interests, you've got the people skills that you've worked in a few different jobs that are going to let you relate to different kinds of people and things. You know, if you think about being a lecturer now, we relate to people from all different walks of life and stuff. So some of the things that I had done that took me beyond academia, you know, for example, I was do I did a lot of sports coaching growing up. That puts you in a very different environment with very different kinds of people, which actually are skills that I draw on now all the time, you know? Yeah. And I think, and I think bringing those skills from other from other from other jobs when they are seasonal or a bit temporary, then they will be transferable anyways to what you actually doing. I mean, I mean, for example, now I was looking for a job. I'm still flipping chicken then at Nando's, Yeah. Yeah, but also, but also and. Sometimes I I laugh. I laugh at myself, not because I'm flipping chicken and say, oh, I'm flipping this as if I was doing as I would as I was fighting against the Persians at the Battle of Golgamella, for example. I said, I said that once to a colleague of mine who was taking civil engineering and gave up any second year of his undergrad. And I said OK, let's let's build something with chicken and corn for. Example. And then say, OK, this is Alexander and the chicken is Darius. And so we're just playing around what went under stress. So, but, but I think The thing is, I think in, in your PhD, in your PhD, you ostensibly have a huge, huge amount of time to do research and then you get an academic job and the amount of time that you've got to do research completely disappears. If you think I was on a teaching contract the 1st six or seven years that I was in Swansea, right. So I don't have any research time in my contract, although you try to do some, you know, the first, the first year that I was in in Swansea, I wrote while I was teaching three different modules across the year. So it's not that, it's not that much teaching, but then you go, that's 125 hours of lectures that you've got to write. And now I can write a lecture in 15 minutes because I've got material, I know how to do it. I can just sit there and go bang, bang, bang. But I'm starting out, it's taken me 5-6 hours to write a lecture because you, you just don't know what students need. You always put too much in it. There's the always far too prepared. If you've got 5 hours to write a lecture, it'll take you 5 hours. If you've got half an hour, it'll take you half an hour, right? And so and then you have all the administrative stuff that you need to do in the job. And it can mean that actually finding research time is really tricky. I think coming into the career having gone well, I had six different part time jobs during my PhD. I'm used to, as you say, right? I was never flipping burgers, but I was always doing something, you know, working on a library desk or whatever where you're serving customers and things. But in the back of your mind you're thinking about a project and you're used to being able to say, well, I've actually only got, I've got an hour between my lectures here. I need to do something useful. Well, that's a little bit like when I was doing my PhD and I was between these jobs and stuff. And I think it makes the transition into the reality of an academic job a little bit easier. And I think people who have had the have been fortunate enough to have had funding and have been able to just kind of focus their entire time on on the research sometimes find the transition trickier. Yeah. I also had all the all the small income streams, yeah, jobs I went, My last one was as a mentor of languages and culture and it was so fulfilling. I was able to express not expressed to share the diverse cultures and languages for young UK peoples about that. And they also like they really enjoyed about hearing a bit of Portuguese, for example. And but go back to you were saying, I think I think it's having these small experiences that makes you even more proactive, as I said previously, but also can it it will help you to reach what the so-called North Star, whether it's an academic job or a non academic one. Yeah. So I'd like to ask as well because I think you've already answered about the if you want to consider any other paths or you just academia like the one way Rd. towards it. I think it's just crystal clear that you already answered to that one. I do wonder that because of the the different time spans of your PhDs Nigel graduate in the 90s and you already in the 20 tens, how then the the PhD degree changed in terms of academic research and structure. Well, in, in my case, I, I don't know that, that I, I can make it a judgement about how it's changed over time because I, my PhD experience was completely different one in the US because it's structured in a completely different way. So, you know, I mean, my, my USPHD took six years. And actually, if I'd known that when I went there, I probably, I, I would have thought twice about doing it, but I thought I could kind of do it in three or four years. But, but actually six years was, was relatively good progress for that. And in, in the USAPHD is, is a programme only about half of which is spent focusing on producing what, what we call in the UK called a thesis and what the, the US calls a dissertation. And bizarrely, the two terms are flipped in US and British youth. So I, you know, I kind of got there and actually I, I found myself more timetabled in the US system as a PhD student than I had been as an undergraduate in the UK system. I was doing coursework, advanced coursework for three years. I had to do a whole range of of, you know, courses on, on Greek, painted pottery, Roman sculpture, Greek and Roman architecture, all of these kinds of things. There were language requirements. I had to do exams or the equivalent in Latin, Greek, French and German and, and then two big sets of comprehensive exams to, to test me on the stuff that and yeah. And there'd been assignments in all the, the individual classes or the individual modules as well. And so, you know, I spent a good three years or so doing that. And also I did a lot of field work in, in, in Egypt, in Italy and Tunisia. And the, the vacations from that, I was working part time as well, half, half time as a, a teaching assistant or a research assistant through that. And then for the last, like, you know, 2 1/2 years or so, that was when I focused on my, my, my thesis topic. And you know, I kind of, I, I selected, I, I, I probably should have worked on a, a research topic that was connected with Roman Italy because actually, you know, my Italian was pretty good even back then. And I like working in Italy and stuff like that. But again, being foolishly naive at the time, I thought, well, you know, there's so many people working on Roman Italy and I'd been working with a lot of them thinking, you know, I can't do anything original on Roman Italy. And, and I, I started focusing more on the Eastern Roman Empire and ended up working on, on things connected Roman Egypt and, and Roman Syria. So, you know, and then I, I did my 2 1/2 years, I wrote my, my thesis and, and that was it. But it's completely different experience from doing a PhD in the UK back then or presumably now. Well, and now on on the based on on my experience of supervising you, but presumably based on Stephen's experience as well. Yeah, but I think it's that it's that thing. Isn't that the American system? Because in America people specialized much later than we do. I think that early part of the PhD program that you've just described, Nigel, is the kind of thing that traditionally people would have thought here takes place in a master's. Yeah, and some of the undergrad even. And I never did a formal masters and, and it was because it wasn't a requirement for the programme. And then just a couple of years into the programme when you've passed your first set of exams, they, they get together and say, oh, I think you, you probably deserve to get a master's degree at this point. So they just give you one. But also because I've done quite a lot of that, particularly the language stuff already as an undergraduate, it meant that I didn't have to do all of that and I could take advantage of some other things on offer, like anthropology courses in particular, which I really enjoyed and got really interested in. So, so yeah, as you say, it's a kind of a, it was a, it was an expectation that the Americans would would be specializing rather later. And to be honest, I like that system. And I did look at a few US places and I decided not to apply in the end. I think that I've not done the PhD immediately after the masses. I might have looked more seriously at some places in America. And I think one of the one of the reasons I like it is I think maybe one of the things that's changed isn't to do with the PhD itself, because I don't, I don't think the process of the PhD has changed at all really, in that the the out what you're required to do hasn't changed. You're required to come up with an idea that no one's had no one's come up with before, which is hard. And you've got somewhere between 1800 thousand words to write to do that. Yeah. And because that's not changed, I think that the way in which it's taught is essentially the same all over the UK, isn't it? one-on-one meetings with your supervisor, bringing your second supervisor occasionally as a second pair of eyes. I think maybe the some of the things that it might just be kind of my experience that I felt maybe I don't quite feel it anymore. But certainly during my undergrad, my masters and my PhD, and then the first five years that I was working, you know, you've got the career ladder and then you've got the bloke who's clinging on to the bottom rung of the career ladder. I always thought of myself as the person holding on to his feet. And I think, you know, when I went, I look at kind of my skill set. And I think I wish that there were things that I had done earlier in my life, particularly around languages and training, which would have helped me now. Like for example, I'm sort of pseudo half teaching myself Babylonian Kunaifor right, to help me a little bit with some of the research that I do. I wish that I had spent three months taking advantage of opportunities in my master's to do that and I wouldn't need to do it now. But when I was doing my masters, the most important thing was getting the grade that would let me get on the PhD, which meant that I could only really focus on the things that I was being assessed on. And like, that's probably true in the British system, from GCCS to A levels to your undergrad to your masters to your PhD. And within the PhD, there's a bit of scope to kind of grow skills and things. But then, you know, in some sense it's, it's tricky, yeah. But I don't think the actual process of doing a PhD or teaching a PhD has changed much in the last the last little while. I think maybe where some of the things have changed is where there are kind of doctoral programs, HRC doctoral programs and people have funding. I think that that funding bodies have become much better in the UK of ensuring that they, or at least trying to ensure that they prepare the students they are funding for a world beyond academia. I think when I was doing my PhD, for all I said, people said don't expect to become an academic. I think there was the attitude that that would be the first choice for everybody. And by the end of your PhD, a lot of people don't want to do it because the last few months of the PhD, you've just done it. Like the last few months of the PhD are pretty miserable, aren't they? Like I was doing, I was doing all nighter after all nighter. Like, you know, I remember leave in the library. Jenny come. I met my now wife in the kind of like final six months of my PhD. And I do not know how she put up with me, but she worked in the building. She worked in a museum in the building where our library was, and I remember like, bumping into her as she was walking into work as I was going home, having been up all night. And it's like a miserable process. But I think funders now have recognized that they need to do more to ensure that students are prepared for the wider world. I think people who aren't funded don't always have that support. And I think that's an area that will change in the next, in the next 5 to 10 years. But I think part of the reason that things will change at PhD level is that things are changing at undergraduate level with regard to kind of preparation for employment. Kind of more connect. There's more connections now between what we're doing as academics and the world of work and with industry and where much because like, you know, when I was an undergraduate, it's not, it's not that long ago. There's a really good career service and your lectures would say, go to the career service and literally nobody would, but nobody I knew went to the career service. Maybe maybe once people had a job interview, they went and said like, what kind of questions might they ask me? But now I think we're doing a lot more to embed kind of employability skills into the teaching that we're doing and making it clear as to use of what we're doing. And I think once we start to see the benefits of that, and I think we are starting to see the benefits of that, once we see the benefits of that undergrad, that will feed into masters and it will feed in a little bit more to what we do with PhD students, particularly given like the job market. Because I do think that, you know, we have a responsibility to make sure that our students are. Yeah. Prepared. I think you, I think there's a big important point to touch on that is that this from what, from all these years that I've studied in my PhD and then obviously, and then my masters when I was starting beginning to understand a bit of the, the British higher education system is that that there is a bit of more of a professional preparation to the, to the world of the, the working world where not only we're just going to have to do our dissertations, but also seeking opportunities of getting some training. I never expected to have some to to to run some training courses on introduction to research integrity or safeguarding in the workplace or any other professional body of that. I would need to have some certificates in order to use them as a proof that the I did something in order to get some of those transferable skills to, to the outside world. So I think in, in in many ways that is a good thing to not to communicate in on our CVS to any prospective employer. So and get changing on the topic of now you both are supervisors, you supervised me and it was a great experience. So I have to give credit for that. But how is the challenge of being a PhD supervisor? Can I go first with this? Because I think the biggest challenge is that it's absolutely bloody terrifying. So, so you know, I, I was your second supervisor. I was the second supervisor for another person who graduated a couple of years ago. I've had one of my own PhD students, supervisor who I supervised complete and I've got somebody else who's nearly finished, right? It's terrifying being responsible for four years of your life, mate. Do you know what I mean? Like, because like we're giving you advice about what directions to go in and like, ultimately, like you ultimately you're going to submit your work when we tell you we think it's good, yes, you're not going to do it before then. And that is it. That is a huge amount of pressure. Like just, and I think when I started kind of supervising, would I have been 33 And like, that's about right. I was, I started supervising my first PhD student when I was still on my tutor contract. I wasn't on my own research contract and, and it all went, it all went fine. But I think that so the the challenge is like there is there is a little bit of training now about supervising PhD students. I don't think there was 10 years ago. And the majority of people, kind of most of what we do in life, we kind of draw on our own experiences and then work out the way we want to do it. Yeah. But as a PhD supervisor, well, you had one and that's about the limit of your experience. So you're kind of like talking to people and working out, working out how to do that, I think. So I think that that's hard. And then I think the other thing that I find hard is keeping the right level of critical distance between a project because I think, and this is I think why having two supervisors is really important. Because I think you as a student need to know that your first supervisor loves you and thinks you're brilliant and thinks that. And you need to know that they're in your corner, right? Because you need to have absolutely implicit trust in them. And that can, as a supervisor, sometimes make it quite hard when and we all have these periods, but you might have a period and APHD where for three or four months it's a bit of a slog. You might feel it as a student, it's a bit of a slog and the ideas might not be coming that you need. And it can that that can be quite hard. It's a bit easier as a second supervisor to come in after a year and be bad cop and say like, look, this isn't and be honest and just be like that. So I think it's that it's that balance of like not getting too close to a project because we work so closely with you that we know what you're trying to say. And sometimes if you haven't quite said it, we miss that. So it's that it's, it's, it's keeping that distance while also making it clear to the person you're supervising. Like, I think this is really good and I think you're really good and I value you and things like that, you know? Yeah. I mean, I, I think you're, you're, you're right about that sense of, of responsibility. So, you know, it's kind of, you know, I do do kind of lie awake worrying at night sometimes if think, you know, if something's not going well for a PhD student or another research student or something like that. Yeah, you know, it is. And to some degree I think that that's increased. But I mean, when I did my USPHDII had a dissertation committee, so I had a wider range of people who I who I could consult beyond my even, you know, not just a primary and a secondary supervisor. So yeah, you know, it does. It does feel it is a big sense of responsibility that when you're supervising somebody. I think that there are a number of different things that come to mind. There's the the question is, so, you know, all research students are different in terms of the amount of input and feedback they want or need and the level of, of detailed engagement that they need. So when I was a PhD student, I mostly like to be left alone to, to, to produce fairly large chunks of things. And, and my supervisor in a, a large, you know, very research active university, that department, University of Michigan, he, he was supervising a lot of students at the same time. Didn't have, would, would, would give it a fairly cursory read over and, and, and give me some pointers and things like that. And I was really happy with that. And I would have hated it if, if I'd was getting constant detail feedback all the time. But some people really like that and really need that level of structure. And and so might, you know, might like my girlfriend at the time was, was really, you know, really wanted and needed that constant detailed feedback from her supervisor and that would have driven me up the wolf. So I think you have to get a sense for for how individual students work. Can I just jump on that one? Because I think one thing that I find that's related to that is you get quite close to a project and then you have to realize that it's not your project and you have to. And I think one of the things I really value about my supervisor is he let me write the thesis I wanted to write and it went beyond some of the areas that he's super interested in. But that's good. And I think I had some friends who maybe had supervisors who they felt were quite interventionist and basically said like, you can't talk about this. If you talk about this, you'll fail your PhD or unlike. And I think, you know, there's a line. Obviously you can't let somebody go down a completely useless path where you're not going to get, you know, there's a responsibility to make sure you keep people on track. But I think, yeah, I think like giving people space to write about what they want to write about in the way that they want to write about it. And I do joke, I'm. I can be quite interventionist when it comes to like phrasing, particularly in how things are done. And I remember, you know, with one of my students, there was one particular I just started like a bat, a list of banned phrases. And that's much more interventionist than I would have wanted to be. But I think it was valuable in that context because if you use the same phrase 400 times in, if you use the same, if you use the same 3 three word phrase 400 times in your thesis, that means 100 and 1200 words are the same. So change them. But yeah, I think letting letting the student find, helping the student find the path that they want to be on and then let them do the project their way, even if you're thinking, oh, actually, I might have chosen, I would have prioritized this bit of evidence rather than this one. But letting them make the decisions is a challenge. Yeah, I mean that that's a really good point. And I had, I wasn't even thinking that through when I was talking about it, but that that the supervisor who? Who, who wants you to write the thesis they want rather than the thesis you want is that And that that was I was aware of that when I was the postgraduate as well. There was another guy who was a really nice guy who who was supervising one of my friends who was, was very, seemed to be to me very controlling in terms of shaping that my friends thesis in a way that my supervisor wasn't. So, but I think that I, I mean, I'm, I'm language and, and, and stuff like that. I think that, I mean, I'm quite interventionist on that as well, But on some level that's, it's superficial, not in a a bad way, but it's not shaping the core of what the thesis is. It's, it's helping the student to present it as effectively as as possible, you know, and get rid of those repetitive cliches and the, the, the, the, you know, the kind of the, the wordiness that that creeps into stuff. So, so yeah, I mean at the end. At the end it, it becomes quite common to write the same thing, write more or less the same thing. But having these type, these supervision feedback, it is useful because it can lead to a different outcome while writing something quite similar to it. I think that that's that's a good point. And also the other point is that that the PhD itself, it isn't just only one offer, it's just the main offer, obviously the student. But at the same time you have, you have at your side a huge academic staff and non academic staff that is helping you is giving you feedback. And besides the, the besides you got you guys give me the feedback on, on the different topics. My current partner has been helping me with the English right And so the language and the tone and the structure was really helpful when she was, she was intervening on the final hurdles of my of the of my dissertation and say you better to cut this off because it feels quite repetitive. Of as you said previously, and I think even if you're not, you know, obviously you're writing in a language you didn't grow up speaking, which is a, it's a different, it's a different challenge, particularly, particularly when particularly when you're exposed to academic English and Nando's English, which is a sort of slightly different. It's a slightly different kind of. But I think even if you're even if you're right, you know, I would get, I would get people to read stuff. And I still get people to read stuff. Particularly with the popular books that I wrote, I made sure that that was read by non academics. But, you know, because so often we get kind of caught up in trying to sound clever. And if I don't try to sound clever, just be clever, you know, and sure that you're clever and have an idea. Yeah. And that's the sort of issue of with the only single authorship that people still confused even some even I heard some pH DS themselves. I thought this is a loan. This is a long and lonely roads and I said no, it's no it isn't. You have people who are by your side and they are helping you to do that. So claiming that the PhD is entirely yours, yes, but at the same time no. I mean, it's, it's good to hear that, that you view it that way because I, you know, for, for me, you know, kind of on, on a challenge in a sense, or a concern with working with PhD students in this system is the extent to which doing a PhD in, in, in the sort of UK style might be quite isolating. And in, in a way that perhaps it wasn't so much for me in the American system. Because you know, having gone through those three years of coursework with a bunch of people, you know, we, and in a quite a also quite a large graduate programme, you know, we were actually quite a, a close community in terms of support. Whereas if, if you particularly if you, you go in the UK system, you go to a university that, where you don't already have a support network and you start a, you know, 3-4 year PhD there and you're focused on what, just what you're doing. I mean, it, it is a, a concern as a supervisor that the, that the student might feel kind of isolated and that might have impacts on mental health and things like that. But so it's good to hear that that you you had an awareness that there were other people supporting you through that process. And I think just on that, I think it's, I think that's a really, it's really important what you said. And it's also a tricky balance, I think, as a supervisor to get because like, when I started doing my PhD, we had a weekly seminar. And somebody said to me, if you give one paper a term at the weekly seminar, by the end of three years, you'd have done 9 papers. And that's a PhD. So that's essentially what I did. Yeah. And I think, you know, you spend much more time with your peers than you do with your supervisor. You might see your supervisor what an hour a month potentially, depending on what stage you are. Maybe it's every couple of weeks and some, you know, it varies depending on the student, but you're not seeing your supervisor as much as you're seeing your peers. So it's important to kind of make sure that you have the right environment. And I think as you know, as members of staff, you do cry to, you try to help create that environment. So you support things like kind of, you know, graduate work in progress things, you support weekly seminars that grads want to run and stuff. But there's also an element where people need to have the drive to do it themselves. And they need, you know, because I think an important part of preparing you for an academic world. And we've talked, we've talked so much about the wider world as well as actually being a self starter. He's got a bit of gumption. He's got a little bit of like, oh, you know what? I wish there was more of this going on. Well, and you know, Louis, you're a good example. You're like, oh, I wonder what it would be like to start a podcast. So you start a podcast, you know, like you've just got to try, you know, you have to. So I think, yeah, making sure that you take advantage of support networks, but that you actively seek out ways to build your own is a really important balance. And if it doesn't, you know, universities need to have those systems in place to make sure students aren't struggling. But also it's on a community of graduate students to create what they need themselves a little bit and take responsibility for that and the employability out terms of doing that are really valuable. You know how you know how many conferences did you organize? Two or three in the time And then you. I've organized 3 and yeah, curiously, I'm thinking in seeking, I'm on in my network. I'm thinking in talking to a person who has some similar research interests to set up a conference in the near future. But this is just an idea, so. Yeah, if anyone's listening to this who's doing a PhD or wants to do a PhD. 3 conferences is too many. Two's enough. That's that's don't, don't. And also don't organize a conference in the final year of your PhD. I'm not sure if you did that, but that's good. Don't do it. Don't do it in the final year. Do it in do it. Do it in year 2. Do it in year. Two, I've never organized. I've never organized a conference in my life. And I have like plans too. Yeah. Don't organize and also just having the seeking of the balance balancing in you doing rather just two or three as you said, Stephen rather than doing 100 and never and not finishing your PhD and you have to delay it. Yeah, but it's also it's, it's the, it's the what? What's the point? It's the like, do it at a point where it's strategic for you. So if you try to organize something in first year, you don't really know what your project is like, great, you can meet some people, just go along with stuff. Second year, you've got a good idea, you've got a bit of time, you can organize it. But also if you meet people from it and there's networks that you start in the form or whatever, or if you go, if you organize a conference and there's going to be an edited volume from it, from doing the conference to an edited volume coming out, you need at least 18 months or two years. So do it in your second year so the thing can be out when you're finishing your PhD, rather than trying to do it in fourth year and then it be in two years in the wilderness trying to find a job before the thing comes out that you've worked really hard on, You know, So it's like thinking strategically about these opportunities. Yeah, I think that too. And I also had also with the PhD community, all that's all that things with meme doing PhD lounge since the beginning of the PhD, by the way, and, and also having other things to, to be active. I mean, we have in, in Swansea Uni, we have a PhD, we have a PhD community. And they, some of them, they do talks just in a more relaxed way. And I think curiously, there's one happening tomorrow, but it's outside of the, of Singleton campus. And many people they join. And now they've, they've extended the concept into setting up different groups on WhatsApp. So tomorrow there will be a cycling event and then many PhDs will go and also PhDs who received the award are more than welcome to to jump on board. Good. So, and since we were talking about the outcomes of getting to academia or not getting into an industry job and now we're facing all this existential crisis of the academic redundancies, which is just a real thing. I've signed up the petition by the way, which was a long time ago. I spoke to with Nigel about that as well and also with the pH DS in trying to at least get the foot on the door on any employment. Do you still think that there will be new opportunities for pH talents like myself and other ones to get either in into academia or would you reckon that industry would be well non academic roles would be a better alternative? I mean, look, I'm, I hope it's come across to listeners. You guys both know me. I'm a very positive person. And the answer to the question you just asked isn't 1 where actually I think the answer is quite negative. I think, you know, is it better to try to get an academia than into industry is a question for the individual. I think, you know, I think that's up to individuals to explore. I agree on that. Do I, do I think that there's going to be a mass load of opportunities in, in higher education in the UK in the next two to three years? No, I don't. And I think that there will also be some incredibly qualified people on the job market who have lost jobs, left jobs, not being able to get jobs because I think, you know, where it's not just that job cuts are happening in lots of universities now, It's the people haven't been hired out of their PhD for quite a long time. I think if you went through humanities departments, particularly in all the UK universities and counted the number of people who were permanently employed and under the age of 33, I think you'd get a very short list, you know, So I think that, you know, people who are graduating now are competing against people who graduate two or three or four or five years years ago. I think that there will still be quite a robust postdoc market because that stuff is, is kind of the funding there is often external, it's not connected directly to university finances. And I think there's still a strong, a strong market, a strong market there. And I think ultimately there will be a kind of rebalancing and a period of recovery. But I think, you know, I don't think there's going to be loads of jobs this year, next year, the year after, unless there's a fundamental change of, of policy regarding HEHE funding, which is a shame, you know. Yeah, I. Don't know what you think, Nigel. Yeah, I mean that that sounds realistic. Certainly though you know, as as I said in through my own, my own early career lifetime, there was so many lurches up and down from the, you know, the the mid 80s, you know, one ancient history job through the, you know, the late 80s in America where everybody said there were going to be loads and loads of academic jobs. And then there weren't in the early 90s, but then there were more academic jobs in Britain. So things do change certainly. I mean, they don't change overnight and, and yeah, there might be unforeseen structural changes that lead to, you know, more jobs of some kind. But then on, on the other hand, as I've said, when we were discussing this in more detail early on, I, I wish in some senses I'd been more, more flexible and, and kind of braver in running with some of those alternative career ideas that I'd gone with. Because I think doing the PhD was, was a worthwhile experience in itself. And I think it developed, I, I think I already had things to offer and the PhD developed some of those skills further and, and gave me new skills. And I think actually, you know, I could have been been equally happy or, or possibly happier going in another direction at that point. So, you know, I mean, yeah, it doesn't look good at the moment. I don't think that's necessarily a a bad thing if you're willing to be a bit entrepreneurial and flexible about what? Yeah. And I think I have a couple of related thoughts to that as well, which are #1 I think that if there are opportunities for universities to hire, and I should say I have absolutely no Intel on this at all, this is entirely just me guessing, but I think that universities will want to hire young people because I think they will look at the makeup of their department. Obviously they can't hire a young person over an old person just because they're young. You know, there's protected characteristics to think about. But I think the positions that will become available will probably be ones that are more suited to younger people, that will be less well paid. They'll be tutor grade rather than lecture grade or lecture grade rather than associate professor or whatever. So that's one thing that might happen. One of the other things that I hope happens, which humanity's that academia is awful at, because I'd like to see more opportunities for people to move between industry and academia. Because you see it in you see it in other academic departments that we know in Swansea. But I've got friends in other places who've got people who come in having worked in a period and then they go out of academia and do something else and then they come back to it. And I think there might be a little bit more like that as particularly when we're kind of thinking a little bit more just from kind of history classics lens, a little bit more about like applied learning, a little bit more about embedding employability into a curriculum to give students opportunities. Things like heritage sectors might be a little bit easier to cross between heritage and academia and back again in the next, you know, I'm talking here about, I'm not talking about next year, I'm talking about the next 20 years. You know, I think there might be a little bit more, more flexibility, more flexibility there. And it might also see, I think universities start to recognise and value a broader set of skill sets when they're hiring. Because certainly when I was, and I think it's probably, I think it probably is still true. The most important thing now is, is your research for an academic job and it's connection to the ref, the kind of research excellence framework. That's the most important thing. But I think everyone's got good research and people will be interested in some of the tiebreakers and some of the stuff we talked about are the kind of tiebreakers that might help people get get jobs. I. Do think that's a good, a good, great way of telling to many of us PhDs to just to be realistic on their own goals. And as long as you go throughout your PhD, your perspective each year you go through, your perspective of checking employment will change. Yeah, yeah. But I think my attitude to it is the, you know, Nigel, like Will said, like we feel very, we feel like we got hugely lucky in our career. And I think you can speak to every academic and no matter where, where they're employed at, no matter their track record. And I think most of them would say at some point they got a little bit of luck that an opportunity fell in the lap. And what you have to do is be prepared for that opportunity to come your way by doing all the things that you can do so that when the opportunity comes, you can take advantage. You know, if the doors open, the door might be open a tiny bit and it's your job to kick it down and get in there, you know? Yeah, with the right, I think it's also with the right with the night network that you have and building it strategically and yes, strategically and not randomly then something will come up. And I think it's just us needs to be quite patient on that and just building that resilience that something will come up. I say, I say even to my parents and even to my, to my PhD colleagues and say, look, we, we might get the job straight away, but realistically it won't be happen on day night. It's going to be it's going to take quite a struggle and just the only thing is just to move on and apply for it and then move on and see how it goes. If it isn't, if it isn't this job, then the job will be next. If it isn't that next one, then then will be another one. It is just keeping focusing on your research and then reinforce your skill set that you have already. Yeah, I also think people have hugely unrealistic expectations or understandings of how academia has ever worked, and I think Nigel's corrected some of them. Yeah. But you know, I think when I was doing my PhD, like, I think everyone just thought you did your PhD and then you got a job and that was it, and you were set for life. And like, obviously that obviously. And you know, I think I know one person for whom that happened and they're a genius. But like that's not what happens. People get short term teaching contracts, you get a short term postdoc. But that is also true in the wider world, like if you want to work in museums, if you want to work in the heritage sector, Nigel talked about like field archaeology being short term contracts. Like all of this stuff is dependent on funding. So it's renewable. So it's short term contracts. And like, you know, that's tricky. That's. A tricky. But it's but I think if you're aware of that, it makes it a bit easier to be not surprised that that is the situation when you get there you. Were saying something, Nigel. Yeah, I'm just, I mean that the I, I'm at least when I was younger, I wasn't especially comfortable with, with, you know, change and upheaval and, and that kind of thing, which makes it all the more remarkable that she went to the US to do my, my PhD. But then after I finished my PhD, you know, I kind of because of also my expectations of the job market, I, I thought things would settle down. You know, little did I know that it would be what another, it would be another seven years before I had a kind of a job that was was open-ended in the sense of not being fixed. And, and I think if I'd been aware of that and be more comfortable with that when I finished my PhD and and kind of known that, you know, yeah, this is the way it's going to be for a bit. And I might have been a bit more, you know, again, kind of adventurous and a bit more comfortable with what was going on rather than kind of stressed by it, if that makes sense. Yeah. And then I think all that matters is just to be for any PhD out there, just to be open minded for the circumstances and you'll get, you'll get an amazing experience during the PhD. And, and, and kind of be, be, be mindful about it, you know, kind of try to enjoy the, the experience of, of what you're doing at the time, if you can, rather than necessarily just thinking of it as a, you know, as, as a way to, to get your ultimate goal or whatever that might be. Yeah, you know, that's the message, isn't it? Like my advice to people who talk to me about should I do a PhD? My advice is, are you cute? Are you genuinely curious about this? That's got to be your number one motivation. Do you have some questions that you want to understand and you want to find an answer to? If you're doing it because it's a stepping stone or something else, you can hate it. It's going to be a slog. It's three or four years of your life. And you know, yes, you should enjoy it when you're doing it, but there's going to be bits when you hate it because there's every bit about every part of your life that you hate at some point, you know what I mean? Like there's where you're like, why am I doing this? You know, why am I still playing football with 21 year olds when I'm 38? There's times when I enjoy it and there's times when I feel like a slow old man. Like, you know, that's one of the bits of my life that I enjoy. And it's the same with like doing a PhD or a research project. You're going to have highs and lows with it. But I think like, if you can stand back from it and try to enjoy it while you're doing it. But the best way to enjoy it is to go into it with the right idea of what it is, what it's for, and why you're doing it. And I think that would be a great advice for any PhD who's listening to to this late, late night session and to also do those who who want to go for a PhD. Probably you've probably had someone at the end of the of their undergraduate or even and your masters and you say I want to do a PhD. What are your thoughts on it? And probably you might have and that as well, without mentioning names of course. What do you think, Nigel? I I, to be honest, I didn't actually, I didn't hear that question particularly well. So is it was it something about how you'd what you what your advice would be to somebody do Well, you know, yeah, that's exactly what Stephen was just saying. If, if, if you're, if you're interested in it and, and it's something you actually want to spend three years, four years of your life doing without an expectation that it will lead directly to something, then yeah, go ahead. You know, but be just be aware that it's not a, a meal ticket to an academic job. But I think most people in that situation now realise that I think in many ways I was quite naive when I applied to do a PhD. When I finished my PhD all along, I might have felt differently if I'd be more aware of that. But yeah, it's a worthwhile experience in itself. But it is, that in itself is important. It's not necessarily what it gets you. Yeah. I think that's a great advice to say. And I mean, I just want to say thank you for your time for having the availability and now having having this circling moment and and quite informal to just to have a have a conversation on on the podcast. It was so it was really, it was really great to to have you both in here and then spread your thoughts to anyone who want to do a PhD and also the reality of the PhD and then post PhD and then your, your experience as both supervisors and lecturers, which is, which is positive. And so I I really appreciate your time. OK. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for having us. And hopefully what, 6 weeks, 8 weeks, we'll get to see you walk across the stage. Hopefully graduation in July. Yeah, maybe right hand my face to say yes, I made it. And so do you have any other any other things would you like to share any upcoming projects that you are you want to research leave Stephen also? So I'll plug something written a. Book as. Well, yeah, okay, yeah, plug some things people want to find out about Alexander the Great. They can buy Alexander the Great Lives and Legacies, which is a fun biography of Alexander. Yeah, and in the process of getting a new kitchen, so buy some copies, please. Other things I can plug. I've been, I've started a YouTube channel fairly recently, so you can get me on YouTube at Stephen Harrison History. Stephen Harrison. Yeah, Stephen with a pH. I'm doing kind of weekly deep dives into ancient history. So the thing I've just done was the death of Philip the Second of Macedon. The week before that I did every time. Alexander the Great has been mentioned in the UK Parliament since the year 1800. That's what I've been looking at. So I've been doing a bit of research about that. So yeah, you can get me on, You can get me on Instagram as well at Stephen Harrison History as well. You get some little shorts there all. Right. Did you? You will. I do remember that you had a twitch channel as well at the time of COVID. Yeah, I'm not doing that. So that was that was I was doing. Yeah, I was doing, during COVID, we were doing kind of like, like daily live streams and study streams with me. I called it Good Morning Macedonia because I was teaching Macedonia. And we did like 10-15 minutes on Twitch every day. And then we started doing kind of like longer study sessions, which was fun. Yeah. But that's a good, you know, we talk about opportunities. I knew what Twitch was, but I didn't have a huge amount, you know, to do with it before then. But we ended up writing that. We ended up doing that, doing some research on how it was being received by students, and we wrote it up into an article that got published. So, you know, that's great. Just oh, and by the way, just no pun intended. Are you still drinking Pepsis and Coca Colas? I'm just about to. Ask Yeah, I got honestly, man, yeah, I get too much. I was doing, I was teaching. I do. I was doing this class on Alexander and it was the death of Alexander and we were role-playing the wars. We're role-playing the wars of the successor. So everyone in the class had a character. And like every 10 minutes was a year and there were different parts of the classroom with different parts of the empire and they could get money to buy troops and they could basically do whatever they want, right? And somebody came up to me inside there. Oh, do you mind if I just pop out for a second? I was like, Oh my God, someone hates this class. And they came back with a 2 liter bottle of Pepsi Max and they said, and they said they said can I trade this for 10,000 troops? And I was like, yes, you can. And then the end I got at the end, I suddenly panicked and I was like, am I allowed to accept a Tulia bottle of Pepsi Max from a student? So I gave it back to him and said he had a drinking. Oh man. What you Nigel? Any upcoming projects? Yeah, always. I think I have more projects than I can complete in my foreseeable lifetime at this point, and certainly more books than I can read in my foreseeable lifetime. But yeah, I mean, I, I do as, as you know, I, I do a lot of, of work now with practitioner audiences, armed forces, government heritage practitioners about protection cultural heritage in, in war time, in conflicts, in modern conflicts. But based on, on my historical research about cultural heritage in, in mostly in Italy in the Second World War. So I'm spending a lot of time, you know, working like with the Irish Defence Forces and, and various other, other groups like that, which is really, really interesting. And again, it's that kind of the, the, the world outside academia and the value that has and, and the, you know, how refreshing it is actually to, to get out of an academic audience and, and get the feedback, the experience and feedback of, you know, of people who've been in, in Unifil in, in southern Lebanon, for example, being shot at by, by both sides. So there's that and, and historical projects that, that tie into that. So I'm, I'm finishing up a book length project on Allied soldiers perceptions, A cultural heritage in, in Italy in the Second World War. A lot, so many people went to Pompeii on leave when they were serving in Italy in the Second World War and wrote about it in their Diaries or memoirs or letters or whatever. So I've been working through a lot of that material and. And that's really interesting bringing that together now trying to put together another funding bid about documentation relating to cultural heritage in the Second World War. So yeah, always lots of things going on and not enough time to get them all done in. But as my dad would say, it keep stops you hanging around on street corners. So, yeah, and. Now I think and maybe more podcast appearances in time soon. Yeah. Yeah. But I think we we could do this again if you if you, if you'd like in a few years time and just having any updates of what's been happening in all the world and so that, that would be great. Yeah, sounds good. Yeah. So you can ask me how how retirement's going. Yes, I can do. I can do that. I can do that for sure you'll. Be back to hanging out. You'll be hanging around on those St. corners again now, so when you. When we become a professor emeritus. I'm told the great thing about retiring as an academic is you actually get time to do the work that you would have done if the other work hadn't got in the way. So. But not for a few years, yeah. Therefore, Nigel and Stephen, thank you so much and thank you once again for being my, my supervisors in this course of 6-7 years. And it was great. It was a great run and, and yes, let's do this again. So it's, it's going to be a great time and looking forward to see you maybe in coffee chats if you'd like to, to do so, and during the graduation ceremony. So I'm be sticking around in Swansea for some time whilst looking for jobs as well and keep grinding on PhD lounge as well so. And again, you know, many, many congratulations to you on your persistence and, and, and hard work and yeah, and, and getting to where you have so. Yeah, yeah. Well done. So really, well, great. Done well. Thank you so much and for the the students and graduates listening, thank you all for tuning in and it's been a pleasure.