Late-Night Talk: Ewelina Kurtys, PhD: FinalSpark and Biocomputing

Evelina Curtis, welcome to the PhD Launch Podcast and thank you so much for being my my next guest. So how do you feel today? Very good. Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. Thank you so much. I'd like to start to knowing a bit about about yourself. What was your academic background? What was your PhD before you've landed as a role as a scientist at Final Spark? So I actually I did my masters, I did 2 masters in pharmacy and biotechnology in Poland, where I come from. And then I travelled also quite a lot. I was studying also in Belgium and Italy and later I did PhD in the Netherlands. In the medical imaging I was doing a neuroscience because here I realized that the most interesting part of the biomedical topics is neuroscience and brain for me. So I did, I did very nice project where I tested the effect of nutrition of some anti-inflammatory formulations on brain inflammation. And I was also looking how it can affect disease progress in pet clinical. That's the science. After I did also a post doc in at King's College in London because I was not sure what to do with myself. I didn't really know what are the options in industry. I had absolutely no clue. I was applying to some big corporations, but I think I wouldn't fit too much. And later I realized by, you know, networking, just trial and error. I realized that there are a lot of small companies who are, which are doing technical things. And then I found this is my niche. So actually since that time I, I'm not working in the lab anymore. I work on the commercial, commercial work. I do commercial work. So anything which is sales, business development, marketing, anything but on deep tech project. So I can use my advantage here because it's easier to understand. If you have a PhD, it's always easier to understand another technical topic topic. Oh yes. So when living in London, I also discovered artificial intelligence. I realized it's you can set up your own business. Why not? You don't have to be an employee and it's quite easy in in the UK. So I think it's it's a paradise for entry production. And I set up a company. I started to work as a consultant, so I have a more freedom. And yes, and this is where I am now. I'm working with Final Spark, as you mentioned, since a few years. And we are a small team of six people, all of them are in Switzerland. I'm the only person who is working remotely because I don't do like on daily basis. I don't do R&D. So I can do this separately. But actually all the team has to be there in the office because it's important for technology developments to to have people in one place. And yes, and we try to build computers for mimic neurons. So this somehow corresponds with my background in my PhD in neuroscience. So it's easier for me to understand. And also because I studied a lot AI also when I started to work on commercial applications. So that's a combination of these two topics which are fascinating for me, neuroscience and AI. So it's a you using a bit of the both worlds as you said. Yes, as you mentioned, yes, because in biocomputing actually that's a, that's a new field on which we're working where we build computers from Nevic neurons. And here you have to combine these two fields and neuroscience and engineering. So a lot of travelling and trial and error, a bit of network and then you've landed at final Spark and then you are able to demonstrate your expertise in both fields, the neuroscience and the the economic, the economical venture as well in trying to showcase what's final spark is. But it's quite impressive. And I was wondering how long did you have to? How long did you take to for you to network with different people in order to land in your current position? Well, I think it's hard to judge. You know, it's a process. I think it's just ongoing process. You cannot say it's your whole life. Yes. Well, I, I'd say I, I don't think you can just give a timeline, but I think it's good to be always open to network and always talk to people, always be curious no matter where you are, because it always pays you back. Yes, and I think also with the with having a PhD and also can be more open minded and then trying to asking questions as our supervisors tells us to keep asking questions to yourself and what if this what if that? How does this how does it work on that that I think that that is a big. Advantage. It's very helpful. Yes. So as we were saying about computers through living neurons, then how how that idea came, came upon to a positive outcome. And on a personal note, you said as well, yet you're working remotely, but I wonder how is the day at the lab? Do you also go to Switzerland quite often or is it mostly remote work as as you said? I don't work in the lab. You don't work. In the lab anymore. So it's just totally different. I left the lab and I have to say I never look back. Although I really enjoyed being in the lab, but at some point I realized I don't want to do this anymore and I don't regret this. And yes, how it started. So Final Spark was founded by Fred Jordan and Martin Kuter, these are two Swiss entrepreneurs. They have already another company which is the digital technologies and it's profitable. So they have money to start something else, which doesn't have to be so, so quick to make money, but like a dream. So they had a dream to build a thinking machine like many engineers, and they started initially with the digital technologies, but later they they realized it's too expensive. So if you have a small budget, you have to be more disruptive. And they decided to go on Neurosize. Wow, sounds like a like a a whole. It took probably took a bit of time then to just to come up with a project idea on the budget then. Yes. And how then does that work with using human cells? Yes. So we use standard methods, same from biomedical research. That's nothing new. You can catch neurons in the lab. It's quite often used, but we do different purpose. So we want to do this because we want to build computer from living neurons. So we put neurons on electrodes. In this way, we can send them electrical signals and we can measure the response from neurons which are spikes and we won't be able to program them. So basically we want to be able to send them electrical signals and so that they answer us in meaningful way, the same way as digital computers are doing today, but. How do how do we get, do, what do we obtain those human, those human cells? From human skin, this is actually the process which is already commercialized, so it's quite standard. And today you can buy stem cells which are derived from human skin. And from the stem cells you can have theoretically any cells you want. Oh my, so it's so it's so easy then to obtain human skin then? Yes. Wow. And then is it a rather complicated process to run these tests? Does it have any any any any positive outcomes? Was there any major setbacks in order to test them and use them to build computer hardware? Yes, it's very difficult and there are a lot of problems every day. Actually every time you work with biology, you always have a lot of problems, but here even more because it's really challenging project and we have all types of problems. How to get to the right cells, how to keep them alive and how to avoid contamination. So you have challenges every day. It's not easy. And the most difficult thing is programming neurons because nobody really knows how they encode information. So we have to do a lot of trial and error to try to figure out some methods. And so far we managed to store 1 bit of information. So this is to illustrate how early we are. That's this very early stage. At an early stage. Wow. So tell me, do you have, do you remember a time where you had you, the team had that challenge and then how how the team overcame that challenge and what did they, what did they learn from that? Well, every time we have a issue, we actually what is characteristic is that we are very relaxed. But I can tell you it's not a usual thing. In many places I've seen it's not like that. But we are always relaxed and try to solve the problem. So yes. So I think Finance Spark has very nice atmosphere which is stimulating creativity and solving problem solving. And we don't follow emotions so much. So actually I really, I never, I've never seen the founders angry. Actually, I work with them maybe more than five years already. I, I stopped counting, but I think I've never said so them angry. And that's, I think it's very important thing and it's very rare because I think people are sometimes very weak and, you know, just just go out of mind when they are stressed. But if you are running a start up, you know, there is always some stress. You can never avoid it. So I think it's important to have this kind of composure, emotional and actually for everyone because like all the team members, I I've never seen anyone really angry. I don't remember that. So maybe, OK, I work remotely, so it's always different. Yeah. But but still, I have to say it's remarkable. And that's very important, you know, to keep then you can keep a building. You don't have to waste your energy. That's quite right. This is something that I've here rarely, or maybe this? Is a because it's very rarely. Trust me, most of the people cannot say that. You have a startup and then just building living human neurons, and we ourselves are humans as well. And then we try to restraint our emotions and. Yes, I think. It's very important. And I just said, I mean, it's like, OK, this is not working. And then it's just I, I can't point fingers at someone to blame one which is so rare. You said in, in any startup or any major established business. Oh my gosh, I'm speechless now. And for those challenges, does that also include trying to reduce any energy consumption as well as not depending heavily on AI, which is it's a big thing nowadays and many people are still uncertain or scared or just everything just comes up and is amplified? So I can tell you honestly, we don't try to save money on digital AII don't do this. Also myself in my work, it's a bad idea. I think it's very important to use AI in your work because if you don't do this, then other people will do this and then you will stay behind. So I think it's not a good idea. But so you, we use heavily digital AI and we actually have some ideas on how, how to more and more ideas, you know with the LLMS being better and better, we have always growing Bank of ideas how we can use it to automate our work in every aspect. So the whole project is about building computer which will be ultra energy efficient. So we'll be, I will be much cheaper running on this, but that's the future. So absolutely that doesn't mean that R&D is saving energy that doesn't work that way. Actually when you building something you will sometimes use a lot energy. So to be to figure out, you know, once it works it will be easy, but before it works you have to put a lot of effort and energy also also really electrical energy. So no, absolutely we don't save energy today. Today it's R&D and once we figure out how to use living neurons as computer, then we can talk about saving energy. And emotional. Energy efficient, but you know that's only when you have a computer switch are really working. Then you can talk about saving. As I was saying then not only saving energy, but electrical energy as you said, but also I wanted to pronounce saving also emotional energy when working on these, on the these kind of things on the computers. But then you also said about looking, looking out for investors and which as you said, your main, your main role. When we had our first chat like a month ago, did you have, did you find any, any hurdles, any challenges where investors are a bit reluctant to invest on final in Final Spark? Yes, definitely. The biggest challenge is the fact that it's such a long term project. So it's like quantum computing. It takes a long time, but we have much less visibility than quantum. So people are still reluctant to to to put money. Actually we get a lot of requests from our website from individual people who want to put their own money, sometimes quite a lot. But for investors like venture funds, I think it's the challenge because most of them they invest in short term projects and especially today when you have LLMS and everyone says we don't know the future, it's very unpredictable. So people are afraid even more because the longer the timeline, the higher the risk. And it's true, it's very high risk project. So it's not for everyone. So yes, that's the biggest challenge is, is this. Any any, any businesses that have already invested in Final Spark? No, we are currently self funded by the self. Fund but still going on on talks. Yes, because we search for 50,000,000, it's a big amount of money so that a lot of people who want to invest small amounts of money, but it's a challenge with 50,000,000. Yeah. I, I, I agree on that. And because as you said, they're looking for short term investment and in, in this day and age, instead, there's a lot of uncertainty of and we don't know what's going to happen. And it feels a bit normal to say, OK, it is seems interesting, but to invest, you just need to be a bit cautious on that. I was doing actually some research on the website and I was like, oh, Evelina told me about told me about trying to do investments and I myself not being invested with a small, a small, a small investor. And I was like, oh, so they have a minimum amount. And I say maybe I can speak to Evelina after the talk and say, how can I do this? And then trying to invest or no longer it's on for like the minimum amount. And then if whatever comes, invest in a lot a larger amount in the future. So from what I understood, it is open to everyone who wants to invest. Yes, but the minimum ticket size is 1,000,000. 1,000,000. So this is a challenge, yes. And then one of the things that I've was really interested in knowing about that you have reached try to reach out for No Spark through with the podcasts also writing articles being featured in different events. Yes. Was there any any event that you've been invited to talk about about the project? Oh yes, all the time. Actually we are almost everyday invited for events. I think it's quite interesting technology. So, so yes, many people would like to, would like us to speak on the events and of course we don't always accept because we have limited, you know, resources, but but yes, we are invited a lot. So they don't. So when you guys, when Final Spark is invited to those events, they don't pay, they don't pay the company to come to free. No, they always say actually we only go for the event if we are paid the travel, all the expenses, including the ticket for the conference and the travel anything. We have to be strict because you know, if we would like to go everywhere and then we would be doing nothing else figure out. And also actually, even if people pay us, that doesn't mean we should go because it cost a lot of time. So we have to be really mindful because we are only 6 people and we have to always carefully think doesn't bring me what I wanted or not. So that's, that's always important. How to use your time effectively? Yes, and and that's, that's a major thing for as you said, it's a small company. It takes a bit of cautious to, to travel and expand the, the, the concept of the of, of final spark. Which one, which, which event did you attend? The last the last event you attended before before this talk. The last one was I think Robotics Summit in but they bulk in Germany. Did you have to speak in German or just in English? No, I spoke in English. Because I've I was I was curious about this because I've been to understand a bit more of the of the consequence. I've my academic background is a completely different a different topic. I confirmation history and I have 0 knowledge in computers through living neuros and not even in computer science. And I was trying to understand how, how the how this process works in order to make these questions for the for the talk. And I had the guts to attend one of your events in Poland when you had to speak your own like native language. I saw it. Yes, I spoke. Oh, OK, OK. Yes, yes, I saw it on YouTube. I don't remember which one it was. It Oh. Maybe that was from Katowice because they posted recently and I posted this on LinkedIn also. What was it? What was it like to be, to be there, to be, to attend the to, not to attend, to, to, to speak? It's always a pleasure. I love to do this, so for me it's always a pleasure. Some people are stressed, but I'm excited always when I speak. Yeah. And I think that that's, that's a, that's a big, that's a big thing because many people just going out, just going there at the stage, they feel nervous and they don't know what to say. They are going everything on the script. But then if I and if you said as you said that event that happened in that location, I'm sorry, I'm not able to pronounce it and then speaking in your native language, then it would be much more comfortable, right? Yes, of course, yeah. And the questions is just would be so so natural. So you didn't need to have any script whatsoever to to answer those questions. No, I think if you don't, I did it in the past when I was less confident and I didn't know very well the topic. I had a few times presentations where I really learned word by word what I'm going to say by heart. And I think it's a good starting point. Yes, because that gives you opportunity to speak with total confidence because you know exactly what you will say. So I did it at the beginning, but later once I realized it's not so difficult to speak, I don't have to do this anymore. But I really recommend this as a start. If someone is nervous, yeah, very good. But you have to repeat like maybe 50 times your speech and you get started. But then you'll get more confident. If you have probable issues with confidence, yes. Did you have also these these type of this type of public speaking events during your PhD? When if you presented at. Conferences. But yes, I always like it. But of course, as a PhD, you, you sit mostly in the lab. You don't stay so much, you know, outside. So I would say much less, much less. So that was another the question about the potential images as you, as as you, as you've answered, did you was was there any criticism Final Spark has received so any, any negative criticism. Well, some people are scared of what we are doing, but that's normal because every new technology I think is bringing some questions and fears and people are usually afraid of what they don't understand. So I think it's it's normal that when you have the new technology, some people are afraid, yes. So that's why we try to be so transparent and to share about what we do so that people can understand. That's, that's, that's a, that's a nice way to see, to see, to see things in a positive way when receiving criticism. And have I would say that Fred and Martin would just maintain their composure and say, OK, just as as we were saying initially to not being so over dramatic or emotional when running the tests, but also when receiving criticism. Yes. Then how do you ensure or even final Spark can show that this state-of-the-art technology or they say this computer hardware through living neurons, which is a revolutionary thing, how will that benefit society? Well, because we can build computers which will use much much less energy. Neurons are 1,000,000 times more energy efficient than digital computers, so that's why. So projecting, projecting this for the future, where would you would you think that this would be more practical usual in maybe in a few decades or just a couple more hundreds of? Years in 10 years. In 10 years. Wow. So there's a lot of confidence then? Yes. And you also have a YouTube channel, right? Yes, I had seen it. Do you do you use it quite regularly? Regularly to? No, not really, no. Not really so much, but yes, I enjoy talking. So yes, every opportunity is good. But the Ezab is if would be related to your day, your day-to-day job, final spark or it's just a completely different channel where you just share your your hobbies or. No, I would definitely do something completely different. So in that case, if you if you weren't doing this role at Final Spark, then what would you do? I think I would be a salesperson on some technical products, some complex technical sales because I love to talk, I love to sell. And when, when there are a lot of technicalities, I have advantage because I like, I like to read about this so I can understand. And then I think I also know how to explain things in such a way that everyone can understand. Any specific company you you in? In that case, any specific company would you rather to apply just? No, I never thought I didn't think about it because if I have to then I will search. But I I I didn't really focus, but yes that definitely if not this I would do Celsius or maybe something else who knows. Maybe something? Else a lot of things I I don't know. And one of the things also going back to the last question about the compute, the computers helping society more broadly, they also have a on the web, on the final Sparks website, they they also have a like a sort of a mini game, isn't it, so that they can interact with. You mean butterfly? I think so, yes. I, I, I have checked a few a few days ago and just trying to play, play around with it. See, I can't understand this. OK. Can you just explain to us how how can they interact for for someone who has no background in in science? Yeah, you don't need to have a background. Actually we have done a web application which is called butterfly. It doesn't always work because it's connected to real neurons and sometimes we have problems in the lab or, you know, limited resources. So it doesn't work always. But when it works is basically you can move a butterfly on on the screen and you decide the direction and whether butterfly will move or not will depends on the activity of neurons. So it's kind of like controlled by living neurons. So it's not if it not saying perfect, but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work then. Yeah, it just doesn't. Sometimes it's closed. If it doesn't work, you cannot log in inside. And then you know that doesn't work. And it just doesn't work because we have limited resources, because, you know, it has to be connected to real neurons. So that's why it's sometimes closed. So it is it is still something not an under working say the least then yes. So it but it makes it a way for who wants to interact to understand how this butterfly process works then. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So would be would be someone is saying saying in putting this question. Would final spark be open eventual job roles if you want. Yes, definitely, but not now. Definitely now we don't hire, although we get a lot of questions from people for internships or jobs. Yes, we don't hire because we have limited budget. Yeah. But once we will find investor, that's the objective actually for the investment is to increase the team. So then we'll be hiding, yes? Has that was there any, any chance to reach out to universities to to have this investment to have for them to invest or just to have a a partnership for students to know the team for an eventual job role, as you say, even though it's it's not for now, but they're the later stage. Well, universities rather don't have money to invest 50,000,000 but we do collaborate with the universities. Actually we invest in them because we selected some universities to give them free access to our lab. So actually we we kind of put money into this. Universities can also rent the lab there. We have such a clients who are universities who pay us to get the access. And yes, I think it's also good to use it for education. We actually try to promote this also as could be a tool for education because you can connect to our lab remotely at any time and you can do experiments. So yes, we do work a lot with universities, yes. Is it mostly based in Switzerland or is also is it everywhere? Actually on our website financespark.com you can see section Neuro platform and there are actually all the universities, universities which they are listed there, all who get access for free. They are from everywhere. So they make sure students and graduates, if you are interested, just make sure and can also link up with Evelina. We'll go over there and just trying to interact and I think this is going to be a revolutionary move in 10 years time. As you said, anything that is new, IT has a bit of resistance, of course, but I think it's going to, it's going to be, it's going to, it's going to stay. And we and I think it won't be much dependent on AI as everything with AI and being dependent on so much of it even for simple questions, right. So in that case, as just to wrap up, do you have any advice to PhDs or even to those who want to take a PhD specifically in this area? And what challenges do you have to share with them and in order for that, in order for they for them to achieve success? And currently in this stage where the market labour is so rough, you know, is that even myself, I'm going to have some going to have those challenges, but because I'm still doing my corrections. I think that it's not possible I think to do PhD in bio computing. It's to fresh the field. If you are interested in this kind of stuff, it's definitely their projects on the intersection of neuroscience and engineering. For example, brain, computer interface. And I think for a PhD, definitely it's good to think what really is the most interesting topic for you. I think it's good criteria to choose. I follow that. And for me it worked amazingly because I I enjoyed a lot my PhD because I like the topic. Yes. Yes. And when it comes, yeah, you ask about PhD, Yes, the advice for PhD, yeah, that would be the advice to do or something what you really enjoy. Otherwise it's a waste of time. Yes. And that's, I think that time is a valuable resource and management which many of us don't value it 100% because I'd say I don't have time for this, I don't have time for that. Maybe you have time for that. You have time and you just don't know how to use it. So Avelina, where they can follow, you've already shared the final Sparks website, but where they can follow more of your work where they can connect Fred and Martin because I think they would be for the top ones to to reach out to network with where they can. I think the best our website we have also discord. Discord for technical discussion we have also newsletter. All the information are on our website and if someone needs any guidance is very welcome to send us a message. And go specifically to to you as well if they want to connect with you. We answer every message always yes. So I think this is a wrap up. So thank you so much. Evelyn oh, thank you. Thank you so much. And I mean, for the students and graduates hearing this topic, just reach out to Evelina, check out final spark.com, check out every resource and maybe you will eventually network with them. So thank you. Thank you so much, Evelina. Thank you all for tuning in and it has been a pleasure. Thank you. Bye. Bye.